posted on August 23, 2011 01:17
10 Fastest Cars of the World Time Attack Challenge Pro Class
by Eric Hsu
Now that the dust has settled from WTAC 2011 itself and the thrashing to prepare in the weeks prior to the event, I'm going to attempt to do an overview of the 10 fastest cars @ WTAC 2011. It seems there was plenty of coverage of the event and the cars on sites, blogs, picture hosting sites, etc. but nowhere could I find a summary of the 10 fastest cars in one place. I'll also include some info I got from talking to team members, drivers, and owners or from what I heard second hand in the paddocks.
This summary needs to be done because 1) Time Attack at this point in time is getting serious on a global level and the 10 fastest cars were all seriously fast cars, 2) you as a Time Attack enthusiast need to know which cars to watch next year, 3) it's interesting to know the back story behind some of these cars, and 4) if a team is planning on building or bringing a car to Oz for WTAC 2012 (I know of a few already), this article can be referenced to see what they'll be up against. The guys at Superlap Australia, who run the Yokohama World Time Attack Challenge, have not announced a date for WTAC 2012 yet, but make sure to check out the WTAC website for updates.
If for some reason you missed the article on the Pro Class controversies, CLICK HEEERRREEE. Or if you're building a Pro Class EVO for 2012 and missed my pre-WTAC 2011 article on the Sierra Sierra EVO, CLICK HEEERRREEE.
Here's a quick overview video of Saturday.
The Pro Class at WTAC is definitely the class to be in since you have the world's fastest time attack cars competing against one another all on the same track. In the USA, the Unlimited class (equal to the Pro Class) isn't doing very well with all the event promotor splits and their rule differences, but at WTAC 2011 the Pro Class entries sold out 20 entry spots in 2 hours at AU$1199 per spot. Remember that Sydney is an expensive city and the cost of Time Attack entries are no different. It sounds like the Pro class might need to be expanded to 25+ cars perhaps. For more information on competitor entires, CLICK HEEERRREEE.
1. CyberEVO, driven by Tarzan Yamada, best lap 1:28.8510
As most of you already know, Tarzan and the CyberEVO ran the quickest lap of the event. According to Tarzan, the only gains in the car are going to be from him as the driver. He believes the car is maxed out in its current configuration. This car gets it done with very little weight (1040kg), moderate horsepower (550hp at wheels at 2.3 bar Tarzan speculates), and a responsive Tomei engine. If you watch in car video, it appears that Tarzan never shifts above 7500rpm. As it is, the owner of the car Mr. Takizawa the dentist, is having to scrounge up parts where he can find them to assemble IHI RX-6 turbos since they are no longer in production. Why does he stick to the IHI RX-6 turbo? I'm guessing because it was the lightest off the shelf (via Apexi and Power Enterprises) turbo since its origins come from the old Honda F1 turbo program . The bearing section is nearly indestructible and all of the RX-6 compressor sections are designed for high pressure ratios (aka high boost). This way Takizawa can run a small RX-6 turbo for good engine response and then crank up the boost for good power. Looking at the turbo in pieces (they had a failure), the first thing that surprised me was that it was only a TCW10 or TCW15 compressor section which are the two smaller of the four available RX-6 compressor sections. I'm not 100%, but I think Tarzan couldn't get a good lap the last session because of a hurt turbo.
Unfortunately I've heard that Unlimited Works, the shop that was maintaining the CyberEVO, and Voltex have recently severed ties with the CyberEVO team. Hopefully Takizawa can find some other partners to work with that will allow the CyberEVO to return to WTAC 2012. [EDIT: I have just heard from Ian from WTAC that things are patched up between Takizawa, Unlimited Works, and Voltex.] Tarzan also mentioned something to me about Takizawa possibly retiring the CyberEVO soon and something about a CyberGT-R??? I don't think it will happen for 2012, but that was interesting to hear.
Look out on MotoIQ for an in depth feature in the near future on the CyberEVO.
2. Sierra Sierra Enterprises EVO 8 (Christine), driver David Empringham, best lap 1:29.0240
A transmission failure via destruction of 5th gear on the front straight didn't let Emp finish the last session with the boost turned up. I guess we finally found the limit of the gearbox, but we were probably feeding it twice its rated torque. That's too bad because we were quite sure Emp would have gone considerably quicker than a 1:28.8510. Like I've said many times before, Emp and Christine lay down the lap times with brute power (800+ at the wheels) since she weighs so much (1270kg). The question I commonly get asked about Christine is, "Are there plans for Christine to go on a diet?" The answer is that I'm not sure because I'm the powertrain guy. At this point in time, we aren't too sure of Christine's future without sponsors. While we were able to get to WTAC 2011 with help from Royal Purple, Hankook, Turbosmart, Okada Projects, Cosworth, and Full-Race, testing and development back at home still costs plenty of $$$. The cheapest way for Christine to go faster is to go on a 200kg diet (reading this Richard?). As for Sierra Sierra, they are busy taking care of business that keeps the lights on: running a Ferrari Challenge team. There's plenty of time to figure a plan for the future since Christine's still on the water. Whether or not Christine will return to Sydney for 2012 is still up in the air, but we will sure as hell try.
Posted in: Columns
, Beyond the Dyno
, EVO IX
, EVO VIII
, Race Cars
, Races & Shows
, Time Attack
, 2011 WTAC
Tuesday, August 23, 2011 2:49 AM
Both S chassis cars used VE heads. I see a trend lol.
Tuesday, August 23, 2011 3:41 AM
If the Interior Tilton Evo keeps developing the aero and engine, it might turn out a replica of the Cyber Evo. The foam pieces under the side skirts reminds me the Cyber Evo last year at Tsukuba. Then Voltex hopped the game, with a wicked aero package.
I would love to see someone built a Elise/ Exige chassis with a turbo'ed K24/20.
Like you said, a dry carbon wide body, some 295 tires, seq. tranny and a flat belly, and a car like that might have a good chance to get under the 1:28.000 mark.
lol'ed at: "The Aussies run their therdeen B's closer to the edge and most American FD owners only race their FDs on a forum."
Thanks for sharing Eric.
Tuesday, August 23, 2011 3:42 AM
Good write-up as usual!
Oh, regarding the Scorch Racing text - any recommandations for fly by wire throttle bodies suitable in the 70+ mm range?
Tuesday, August 23, 2011 5:05 AM
700+ horsepower in a 1010-kg Silvia? Holy crap...
Tuesday, August 23, 2011 6:22 AM
It would be a crying shame if the top 2 cars from the last two years didn't make it back next year. I hope the Cyber EVO finds a new home and a team that can keep it up to snuff. And hopefully SSE gets a sponsor to handle the Time Attack team. And if not, I hope another American car or two can make the event. I'm kinda out of the loop, where were FXMD and World racing? They both have seriously fast cars that need to throw down.
Tuesday, August 23, 2011 8:45 AM
Ya what is going with FXMD and World Racing? Is Rado done with his AWD experiment? Where is the NSX!
Tuesday, August 23, 2011 10:25 AM
Saw 9k on that Sylvia's tach from the missed downshift coming out of T1. Whoops. Wonder how much time he lost there...
Thanks for the write-up Eric. Where's the Sierra Sierra or CyberEVO in car? :)
Tuesday, August 23, 2011 11:42 AM
I don't think that lost him too much time, but there are some spots were he has to let out of it from turning in too soon and running over curbage he shouldn't have. I swear it seems like the car has wicked bumpsteer... Hard to say for sure, but I'd like to see Emp in that car! Smooth is fast.
Tuesday, August 23, 2011 1:26 PM
Regarding the 18's on a R35, its all a matter of tire selection. As you go up to the 19 inch wheel, your tire choice gets more limited. As you go to the 20 even more limited.
On this R35, the wheel/tire/ aero package does look a bit funny, but it seems to work.
The most choices, most sizes are going to be in an 18, and until more race cars run 20's, the 18 is the way to go.
Tuesday, August 23, 2011 2:47 PM
I am with you on the bumpsteer in the S15 Rawkus, looks like he is really fighting with the car.
Tuesday, August 23, 2011 3:58 PM
duke: The Z06 throttle is a favorite of mine's. 89.5mm.
Kaane: Dunno about Rado. I believe he's building another new car. I think the NSX is resting, but I've heard that Billy Johnson won't be driving if it does return.
tyndago: I know 18's are all that's available, but 18's look fucking dumb on a big thick boat like the R35. They make slicks in 19's. Hoosier makes sticky 19s, but they won't work for JDM, Aussie, or UK time attack because there's no tread with the exception of 2 lines.
Tuesday, August 23, 2011 10:30 PM
Still laughing at the FD forum racers comment :)
Why do those FDs and the Elise have to look so dang good? I keep hoping that someone is finally going to assemble the perfect RWD platform to start taking away some of these TA lap records. Nothing yet :( People keep saying there is no replacement for displacement, but I keep wondering if anything can thrive without all wheel drive?
19s may look better but I just hate the thought of adding anymore unsprung weight.
Tuesday, August 23, 2011 10:36 PM
i have heard that WORLD racing wont participate in WTAC because the rules require them to run a muffler. if your familiar with the exhaust layout on both the FWD and AWD cars (straight out the hood), you can see theres really no way to mount one. i dont know how much truth there is behind this tho. guess ill ask Chris next time i go down to the shop.
Tuesday, August 23, 2011 11:03 PM
Bruce: the answer is MAGNESIUM. If you can afford to build and race a R35, you can afford mag wheels. "Thrive without all wheel drive" is a good one. I've never heard that. Light weight mid-engine rear wheel drive is the key to 1:26.5. How's that one haha.
Slickshoes: CAMS rules state that the exhaust must exit behind the rear wheels. No muffler is required.
Tuesday, August 23, 2011 11:08 PM
JDMized: I think if Tilton continues developing their car, they'll end up having a car with more power than the CyberEVO and lighter than the SSE EVO (it already is actually). A very potent combination actually.
Grunt: You're right about the trend. Those guys like head.
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 12:04 AM
BAAAHAHAHAHA Eric, loving the possibilty of an additional sponsor for Berry....
Maybe some of the promo girls could show the lads how the product is best used?
Nice writeup mate, see you next time!
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 12:40 AM
Nice article Eric. :) Small clarification on the exhaust rule. it's either exhaust must exit behind the front wheels or most usually exhaust must exit behind the rear most'opening' door. it varies between those depending on class etc and ruling body, for WTAC and CAMS I believe it's the behind rear most opening door rule (but best to check with the CAMS manual for anyone building a car)..
if it was behind rear wheels we'd all be in trouble!!
behind the rear most opening door makes sense if you think about it. people get around this by welding doors shut etc. I believe the logic is if someone needs to pull you out of the car in a hurry they don't want to be straddling your glowing red 4 inch side pipe. Marlin however loves straddling glowing red pipe but that's a story for a different blog.....
see you in 2012. :-)
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 12:49 AM
Eric, as you noticed, Japanese tuners (Mr. Takizawa in this case) liked to stick to his RX6 turbo. They probably found it very efficent like you said, small enough to spool up super fast, and maxed out all the time, and like you mentioned, it didn't last long before Tarzan had to pull it.
Japanese (generally speaking) are all like that. Once they find something that works great, they stick to it, even though something better could be out there (EFR Borg Warner?). It worked for them for so many years, why fixing it?
But like Tarzan told you, he feels that the Cyber Evo is maxed out (or at least close to it).
So, the Cyber Evo technically speaking is an old car. They changed few things in the engine (rebuilt by Tomei) and worked the aero package. Everything else is pretty much the same. Even the cage and the chassis is the same as few years ago.
I don't even think the Cyber Evo runs a dry sump to tell you the truth.
Talking about the Interior Tilton Evo. They might have a better engine package than the Cyber Evo guys, (and although I am a big sucker for Voltex), I would like them to develop something on their own, instead of buying aero straight from Voltex.
Racing is also fun when you have a variety of cars on the field, not only Evo's.
Speaking of Evo, this car could be very fast:
As far as 19' magnesium wheels, I'm not too sure who makes them. Rays/Volk used to offer the TE37 in Magnesium, but they were only available in 18' and cost a cold $1600 per wheel.
Dymag I think stopped making wheels for cars (those exotics carbon fiber spokes with magnesium barrel), or at least they're not adverstising it on their site anymore.
I know BBS makes magnesium wheels, but if I'm not mistaken they're only available on 18' (look at the almighty R34 Mine's Skyline).
Rado is spending a shit load of money on his cars (FWD and AWD spaceship). Supposely had some serious gremlins with his custom Weismann tranny last season but I heard that those gremlins are not fixed.
I don't think it's too much of a deal to weld on an exhaust that exits to the rear (if that's the issue).
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 12:55 AM
Billy is still our driver. I do everything around Billy he lives far now so we have Matt Andrews for testing. We are hoping to race it sometime this season but we have been busy with the new car.
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 12:58 AM
Also the GTR had to run 18" wheels because the competitive tires in the event only come in 18" sizes with short sidewalls. Also the GTAG GTR weighed right around 1470 at inspection its got a lot of potential so everyone in the team is hopeful and looking forward to the future. Do you guys really believe the 550whp claim from cyber? Maybe last year I would have believed that, I suppose anything is possible though.
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 1:05 AM
yes, cyber evo is most definitely not dry sump. hardly any Japanese tuner cars are even among top level time attack cars. many of them do often like to play with swinging pick-ups and complex baffles etc though. either that or they just aren't driving hard enough to have oil surge issues! lol.
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 1:16 AM
@Andrew, I watched Takizawa tune the cyber car (here at GAS last year) and it is making about what they claim. however last year after the dyno tuning he did wind the boost up further on the track so as to how much it's putting down on the track who knows but it's not far from what they claim. no matter how much boost they run it's coming out of a turbo the size of my fist so it's never going to make much more than the 550hwp quoted. and in fact I'm not sure it's even 550whp, it may even be more like 550 engine hp.
Having shared a garage with them I talked a lot with Takizawa (owner/tuner), Akaike (data), Nakajima (owner of voltex) and Tarzan and they are pretty up front with info etc when I ask them. As above they may 'sandbag' a bit on the quoted power rating but not by much. It's speed is all about light weight (cage does not even have a cross in the main hoop or rear legs), good response, good suspension tuning and great aero. and don't forget they've been campaigning the same car for many years and kept making incremental changes which is the way to improve. on top of that Tarzan is a pretty good driver and drives the wheels off it. they kindly let me watch the incar of his 1:28 lap a few times and he is certainly not letting the car down. very impressive for a guy who has only limited laps at that circuit. but you can see he's very comfortable and confident in the car.
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 1:22 AM
When I read their blog, it implied they were working on getting more power since last year thats what had me wondering...
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 2:54 AM
Eric, good info about the LS7 throttle body.
What TB are you using on the Sierra Sierra if I may ask? Do you do traction control through the ECU? What methods do you use for reducing power? Boost, throttle, fuel?
Regarding GT-R's and tires, Toyo actually make their R888 R-tire in GT-R sizes - 285/35-20 and 315/30-20.
It's in their GG medium compound though so I suspect 295/30-18 A050 soft would be faster.
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:47 AM
JDMized: BBS makes 19" and 20" magnesium wheels. Like I said if you're running an R35 if pro class, BBS mag wheels are necessary unless you want a funny ass looking race car. I believe the carbon Dymag wheels were failing and they were discontinued.
Andrew: Holy crap 1470kg is HEAVY. Good to hear the NSX is coming back out. I hope the SSE EVO will be coming back out too. I hope some tire manufacturers on the list make a GTR only tire. Something like a 335/30/19 or 335/25/20 would be cool.
Beer: yeah the Japanese love those complex clusterfuck baffles and swinging pickups. I think they generally fear dry sumps because they don't understand dry sumps. Or maybe us Westerners are dumb asses for making our oiling systems so complex. All I know is that our cars car run in space and theirs cannot. :)
Duke: I'm using the venerable factory Nissan VH45DE throttle body (cable) on the Sierra EVO with a modified throttle cam and custom shaft seals. The SSE EVO does not use traction control. We've improved traction massively to the point that there are no traction issues through diff config and electronic diff control. We used to use boost by gear, but Dave likes the ability to modulate the throttle while accelerating out of low speed turns.
The R888s are absolutely useless against the JDM A-050s or KDM Hankook Z221s.
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 11:04 AM
Is that a one-piece front end on the HKS GTR?
An accusump system I think is a good interim solution for those not ready to go up to the dry sump level.
What turbo is the advan s15 running? HKS T51R of some sort?
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 4:53 PM
I'd be more comfortable running a wheel composed of magnalium or even a carbon fiber wheel of some sort. I cringe at the thought of a magnesium wheel catching on fire. Most people aren't equiped to put out a magnesium fire.
Eric - Love the "key to 1:26.5" response! LOL That "thrive without all wheel drive" took me 5 minutes to come up with because I couldn't find anything to go with traction! When I get my ducks in a row, I'd love to do that mid-engined TA beast we keep coming back to. Of course, the LS/VQ debate would be mute because only the VQ is going to fit :)
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 5:48 PM
Is there an actual drawback to running an 18" on the GTR? Or is it ONLY aesthetics-based??
I really want to see some updates on the FXMD nsx, GST L, as well as both WR Fwing's. SSE forced some rebuilds? lol j/k
If a car like the CyberEvo made 550awhp with someone outside the team watching, and THEN they turned the boost up, I would assume 600awhp is not out of the question? AND that story/example was from WTAC 2010 from what I understood? (anyone grab the trap speeds the CyberEvo was hitting in 2011?) I would assume they came to the 2011 WTAC with AT LEAST the same, if not a little more awhp?
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 5:54 PM
Anyone else tired of the CyberEvo-based aero kit being bought and/or regurgitated over and over; has Voltex acheived aero perfection or what?!? Is this a TA trend, or just a cost effective short cut for teams w/o the ability to design/fab effective aero?
New for 2012! Certain TA series adopt a standardized aero package for makes/models? 'Voltex, or get the hell outta here!' haha Joking!
Effect and unique aero design/fabrication is always a really fun progress to follow. Which is why Mr. Brilliant has so many kudos of awesome!
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 6:57 PM
@eeeen: there are no real handling drawbacks to running 18s on an R35. it does lower the ride height a bit and the reduced radius of the tyre/wheel combo compared to the standard 20s effectively changes the gearing but it's actually beneficial at eastern creek and most other tracks. like Eric said at the moment a set of A050s or the Z221s in 18 is much faster than a set o R888s even in the 19s or 20s and even though the R888s are available in wider sizes. so until that changes most guys with R35s will be running 18s.
I really don't think Cyber got much if any more power out of it between 2010 and 2011. Takizawa told me they improved response a little (thought tarzan said to me he still wants anti-lag!). They just don't need big power to make the times. and yes I was talking about 2010 when I watched takizawa tune it but from memory it was less than 550hp atw on that tune. It was around 350-370kw atw which is more like 500hp atw. They told me they wind the wick up on the final day and then it makes around 550hp atw. Their trap speed is quite low. I have it written down somewhere but off the top of my head this year their top speed was 248km/h, A far cry from the manly 298.9 of the SSE Evo. :)
On the aero thing for sure it's a cost thing. I mean Cyber have proven the voltex gear works so if you're running an evo and can purchase that kit for a fraction of developing your own kit and get it working pretty well out of the box then it makes sense to do so. especially if you are on a tight budget (who isnt?). That's what they guys did with the Tilton car and sure it enough it worked well. I agree it's no where near as fun as making your own gear but not everyone has the time and money to do that, and even those that do get mixed results. It can take time to get it right. Like Ricky Bobby some guys just wanna go fast and bolting a voltex package onto your Evo is an easy way to do that.
There will always be guys making their own gear though and for sure it's much more interesting and the people involved learn a lot from it too. it's just not for everyone.
@tony: yes the front end on the GTAG/HKS R35 is one piece. it actually caused a bit of a problem when the car was on fire as with no panel able to be removed they had a bit of trouble getting extinguishers onto it and of course couldn't see exactly where the fire was. it certainly couldn't be removed in a hurry. I have a feeling they might re-think that with some quarter turn 'zeus' fasteners or aero catches or even section it into 2 or 3 pieces so you have a removable 'bonnet/hood' to allow quick access to the engine bay. but for aero of course 1 piece is desirable.
The Scorch S15 runs a GCG/Garrett T04Z I think.
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 7:37 PM
@der Bruce - when I was in the Navy- the way you put out a magnesium fire was to "jettison overboard".
I really don't think that magnesium wheels catch on fire too much.
The R888 for the R35 is ok as a tire, but no where near up to the task of time attack. Its a street tire, that guys can put 5,000 miles on the street. We ran them shaved in World Challenge, and they are OK, but not nearly as quick as any of a number of other tires.
18's are the way to go for tire choice, and wheel choice. 21's look baller, but don't do well for time attack.
I tried those swinging oil pickups, and baffled pans in the WC R34, sucked at Laguna Seca.
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 7:52 PM
Honestly if you can get away with swinging pickups and stuff, your just not pulling enough Gs. Japan also builds real race cars, none of them are running wet sumps.
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 11:03 PM
Word! that's what we say in Australia, if you're driving a GTR on the track with a wet sump you are just not driving it hard enough... or you own an engine building business and don't mind changing bearings more often than oil. either way if your GTR is a full time circuit car and the rules allow it dry sump is the only way to go. everything else is a band aid at best and a placebo at worst.
Thursday, August 25, 2011 12:17 AM
We can thank the old school racers at Indy and Daytona for making dry sumps plentiful and accessible in America by racing at high speeds on tracks with long sweepers. Then we can further thank the red necks for racing stock cars, midgets, sprint cars, and dirt modified in circles too. That made dry sump pumps even more accessible (ala eBay). Lucky for us, the V8s of yesteryear and ultra shitty oiling systems from the factory, giant sumps, and tall crankcases which allowed oil to slosh all over the place.
This plentiful dry sump thing never made it around to Japan however. Japanese racing up until the mid 90's simply was not world class (outside of F1). Their cars and engines sucked balls and therefore they never needed dry sumps. Yes the legendary S30 240Zs and TE27 Corollas were actually pieces of shit until we Americans started racing them and made them fast (with dry sumps of course and usually the Cosworth "Slimline" pump). When the Japanese finally did design and build fast cars, the professional engine companies were doing the integrated pump type dry sumps in their racing engines. They didn't do it V8 style and hang a pump off the side. Its my guess this is why the Japanese tuners never had access to dry sump pumps and why Japanese motorsport does.
Moral of the story: rednecks and V8s helped us Western serious race car builders get cheap dry sumps. Damn, that was a lot longer than I intended...
Thursday, August 25, 2011 5:29 AM
With each passing day, I have more and more respect for NASCAR... Should I go to the doctor?
Thursday, August 25, 2011 6:56 AM
Oh, NASCAR has lots of high end engineering in it. The racing format just bores me to tears lol It still bugs me that the rules book is so old-school and stuck in their ways. The formulated bodies for aero erk me too. But enough about NASCAR! The cheap hand me down parts pouring out in leftovers is great.
Thursday, August 25, 2011 11:28 AM
I don't really like NASCAR, but I can tolerate it in chunks, however the tech of NASCAR is pretty impressive.
What they can do with 358 cubic inches, of carbureted, push rod V-8 is pretty amazing. Spin them to 9k, make 800 hp.
Back in 1986- 1987 - Road and Track had a track test of a NASCAR vs a Porsche 956 on an Oval. The old NASCAR did 240 mph unrestricted. Pretty crazy for some good old boys and barn door aero.
Thursday, August 25, 2011 5:14 PM
@eric hsu thanks for the clarification. htere ya go. the new car might have a legal exhaust routhing. i really havent looked at it tho.
Saturday, August 27, 2011 2:54 AM
On this topic of cyber evo's power, I checked a few sources and their official modifications lists on video option claimed 650ps prior to the first WTAC.
Also watching their in car and doing some basic calculations from claimed weight if its 550whp its gotta be lighter than they claim and I think that would be extremely difficult.
Saturday, August 27, 2011 7:55 AM
Tarzan mentioned that the owner thinks it makes 650hp, but he thinks it makes 550 at most. Having plenty of experience with the RX-6 turbos myself, the particular turbo they are using cannot generate 650hp of airflow (except maybe on methanol). The largest RX-6 could just barely do 650hp an extremely good race fuel. The Cyber EVO has one of the smaller RX-6s.
Then there's the multiple reports of the CyberEVO making 470whp at 1.5bar on the dyno and I think Tarzan's hp estimate of 550whp at max boost would be fairly accurate.
Plus the CyberEVO's front straight speed of only 248km/h reflects the car not making much power. Either that or the Voltex aero creates massive drag? You (Andrew) would be able to assess that better of course. As a comparison, the Tilton Interiors EVO was making in the neighborhood of 630whp and it was doing around 265km/h on the front straight I think.
Saturday, August 27, 2011 7:58 AM
Slickshoes: tell Chris to build the new car for WTAC rules. It would be great to have him and his team in Australia competing with the world's fastest.
Saturday, August 27, 2011 8:44 AM
Given the extreme differences in power and acceleration between Cyber Evo and SSE makes the CE setup even more impressive. It must have considerably higher speed from turn-in to past apex. It must be more to it than the weight differance and a possibly faster tire.
Have SSE considered stepping up to 295's?
Saturday, August 27, 2011 2:46 PM
Eric, I can comment off the record on Cyber's aero, but not here.
Saturday, August 27, 2011 8:25 PM
Also SSE exhibits the same characteristic against the FXMD NSX in the US. the trap speeds are much higher for SSE and corner speeds are higher for cyber and the NSX. SSE is a heavy car with a lot of power. Its different strengths and weaknesses and thats whats so cool about TA, you actually can try 3 different ways to do something and see who wins out.
Sunday, August 28, 2011 10:56 AM
duke: if you read the comment discussion carefully, you can see that the CyberEVO did have a considerably softer tire. SSE is already running 295s. Theres still more that can be done to the SSE EVO to improve the car, but its just a matter of time and money of course.
Andrew: Aero is one of those topics I am genuinely interested in but do not have the brain capacity to absorb since I am usually so concentrated on the engine side of things. But its good to have a general understanding of a car's aero package so I'll be sure to hit you up about it the next time I run into you. :)
Yeah TA is one of the very few elements of motorsports that isn't heavily restricted by rules and regulations. It certainly isn't a boring spec series either. No disrespect to drivers, but today's motorsport is driver-centric and I don't understand that. While the driver certainly is extremely critical, so is ever other part of the team and car. Unfortunately the masses will never understand the technical aspects of racing and therefore only the driver gets all the love.
Sunday, August 28, 2011 2:33 PM
Andrew - I hear you're the AERO guy. I'd love to see a contributing article from you or even a discussion in the forums on "aero stuff". For example, front splitters, rear spoilers, canards, vortex generators, etc and at what point in development, we should consider adding them. I tried doing a bunch of aero research about 12-18 months ago but there is limited info out there, especially regading application.
Monday, August 29, 2011 12:07 AM
I seriously suck at writing.... aside from that, one part of me is a scientist and wants everything to be talked about and peer reviewed, the other part knows in my business secrecy is everything. I talk about what I can when I can but most of it I am developing for someone who pays me not to talk about it. What I know that nobody else does is what generates my value.
Monday, August 29, 2011 8:53 AM
^^To add to Andrew's comment on an aero article, the effects of different components and when it's 'appropriate' or 'necessary' really is a case by case scenario.
I think it would be really hard to be able to make an advisement for when cars should do this, that or the other feature without looking at each car individually or even more so the track that they'll be running. For instance, when I was working at the windtunnel, some of the DP cars would find that front cannards (dive plates) worked for them and others barely picked up downforce but gained noticable drag.
...of course I'm just an engine guy now and have been for a while, so all things aero are a bit rusty in my mind lol
Monday, August 29, 2011 1:19 PM
Andrew and Micah - I was thinking more along the lines like, "if you're going to hit over 110mph, then an adjustable spoiler is highly recommended" or "the right canard could be helpful but most hurt, so focus on the front splitter." Just some helpful hints to keep us in the loop/knowledgeable!
Monday, August 29, 2011 1:50 PM
Oh yah, aero is 100% interaction driven. The real answer to most questions is "I dont know, I need to use proper test methods to find out what will happen" but people dont like that. Proper tests are expensive and time consuming. Surely if you dont know it will work without testing, it means you didn't know. A lot of being an aerodynamicist is building up intuition that one run in the wind tunnel just isn't right or getting a funny feeling to recalibrate or check the repeatability in this one scenario even if it seems like the result you expected, that takes experience and discipline. Testing the same thing three times over a few days doesn't usually float well against development schedules or team bosses. Good people can design bad aero. Good tunnels can give bad results. CFD can report whatever you wanted it to and inexperienced use can be dangerous. I think something even as simple as an adjustable spoiler is still totally setup dependent: wing and diffuser interaction are huge, so are drag compromises. There are certain things that good intuition can get you, and maybe that is at the level to win in say mid level classes of Time Attack, maybe... but I think the right thing to do is teach people how to test track side using DAQ or what are the principles at work. But those aren't the kind of articles people like to read. They like articles that are "hey, this wing makes you two seconds quicker!"
Monday, August 29, 2011 4:35 PM
Andrew - See dude, you're so passionate and knowledgeable about this stuff. You're right though. People want guarantees like that, but we all know the wisdom of Tommy Boy when it comes to guarantees :) I kind of have this theory that aerodynamists like yourself are part of the evolution of tuning. Both for aerodynamic grip as well as decreasing drag for improved fuel economy purposes. It's a theory at this point, but time will reveal whether or not I'm wrong (probably). I know CFD but I'm not familiar with the DAQ acronym? Driver assesment questions?
Tuesday, August 30, 2011 8:46 AM
Andrew, I completely agree about the gut feeling/intuition of knowing if your data is 'real' or not(common to all testing). I think writing a proper aero article would rely much some test theory, showing how to do grassroots testing (tufting, oil flow, perhaps some pressure transducer or suspension potentiometer work)...for those that really do want to get an idea of what they have. Because we know there is no rule of thumb as to when something is necessary or more downforce than necessary.
Some testing could reflect if the forces on the damper, on the same stretch or road reflected against time for acceleration, you can start shaping answers but are still left with so many variables. You need time, controlled conditions, senors and dataloggers to get 'values'. If you want to get an idea of airflow and such, that's much easier.
Bruce: DAQ is data aquisition.
Saturday, September 24, 2011 3:21 AM
That would be cool, yah I can talk about test methods for sure.. and concepts of what makes it all work. I'm starting to sound like my senpai... I should stop haha
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