Hard as F*ck!- Mike Essa's BMW Z4 Drift Monster

Fucking A !!!
Kept those tech-articles comin' !!!

1st off Mike, this is a sick article and scoop. The latest Eurotuner of 2 days ago managed a barely paragraph and one picture of this thing, where as you are in depth as usual.

I want to ask a naive question Mike, so what would you consider a light weight wheel, like you mentioned in the article? Less than 20lbs? I've been looking to reduce unsprung weight with lighter, stronger wheels as of late.

In the low 20 lb range. It helps to be friends with these guys, then I know where the cars are and what's going on with them.

@ Der Bruce:
Lightweight Enkei are the RPF-1. The new PF-1 are actually heavier than the RPF-1. Both use the MAT technology.
If u really wanna drop rotational mass. Look into Rays/ Volk forged monoblock.
The CE28N are the lightest compare to the TE37, the newer TE37SL, and even the RE30.
My CE28N, just to give you an idea, weigh 15.5 lbs. (17X9 ET+22). Very light.

How close is that turbo to the engine block? That thing is pretty big. Could there ever be any problems with heat causing problems with the block in that area?

Cool car. The Pectel SQ6 ECU install and tuning is done by Apex Speed Technology I believe. I'm guessing when the interior is done, it will be running a Pectel Omega dash also.

I believe the Driveshaft Shop adapts Cadillac CV joints to everything and not 930s. Cadillacs are much cheaper and probably almost as strong.

Eric, the car does run a Pi/Pectel dash, I made a bunch of edits last night but I was so tired I forgot to save! The CV joints are 930 parts.

The turbo is close to the block, but its really only the compressor side. the exhaust housing is about 3-4" from the block. I would have liked to mount the turbo differently for ease of access and better heat dissipation, but the bmw motor has about 40* of tilt, and does not allow for a top mount to be done well. Yes, the wiring and pectel ecu tuning is being taken care of at Apex Speed Technology.

Its great to see a 6 cylinder turbo in drift just the way drifting was meant to be: with turbo engines. Nice job on this Z4, Mike (Essa). The Apex Speed Tech guys are bad ass with Cosworth Pectel electronics too.

I'd like FD implement an aggressive # of cylinders vs. minimum weight rule to keep the number of turbo engines in competition higher. Or a high tech rule which eliminates push rod engines unless the car came with a push rod engine. Necessity spurs innovation. Big displacement V8s do not spur jack shit (no offense Dai/Mike, just speaking my mind).

Thats funny, in most motorsports the rules penalize turbo engines. In most motorsports turbo engines are superior in every way but in drifting transient response is so important that turbos can be at a disadvantage.

However I think our twin turbo VQ we just built is pretty buff for drifting, plenty of power, super wide powerband and snappy response. I dunno why all the one's in FD don't seem real competitive. Is it bad tuning? Bad set up? Bad driving?

One thing for sure, in a situation the Falken LS S13 is a lot easier to work on and the whole car is simpler and easier to deal with.

Use the MZ4 spindle, and then you can have a custom strut housing made that will kick the steering arm for bumpsteer and also reduce the KPI, which if fabbed correctly will even make room for wider tires with less scrub. Jay

Oh snap! We have suspension masters Mike K. and Jay from GC in the house.

No doubt drift cars benefit from normally aspirated transient response, but drifting with pushrod V8 engines is not called drifting. It's called dirt modified or sprint car. No, but seriously, I hate sounding like a broken record, but the industry that created drifting was based on small displacement, OHC, turbocharged engines. The "industry" needs to grow with drifting. Why is the sport of drifting lining the pockets of domestic engine builders and component manufacturers when it should be lining the pockets of legit knowledgeable tuning shops and engine builders who created and supported the sport from the very beginning? I think that's fucking bullshit. Then again I've completely ignored drifting as a sport so I really don't have a say in things. I'm just bitching from the sidelines.

If FD imposed rules I mentioned above, innovation will drive turbo engines to become more responsive and reliable out of necessity. The teams with money would lead the way by being forced to invest in engines and turbos from the premier turbo engine builders who would then build reliable and responsive engines. At the moment, its only the broke asses who dump money into turbo engines. And as we know, no money + racing = never works.

We will see how the Papadakis Racing Scion will do with the super fast responding Borg Warner EFR turbo with 2.6 liters and twin scroll manifold. Gushi's car is outgunned with a 2.5 liter turbo though.

I am convinced now that a twin turbo VQ can do it, even our simple modded JWT system would work really well. I dunno why Matt Waldon and Pat Mordaunt don't do better, their cars seem to lag or at least are slow in transients. Pats engine is some really trick 4 liter deal too I think.

Where the LS really shines though is when you have to work on the car. Pull the tranny, easy. Car hits the wall or another car, you don't have to deal with bent and busted charge pipes or intercooler, etc. Blow a head gasket, you can fix it in a few hours.

Have to pull the motor, no problem, swap motors in a few hours. Turbo system about double the work. We have fixed a lot of stuff with just the three of us and have aways gotten the car back in the show running hard enough to win while not killing ourselves staying up all night even with big incidents.

If it was a turbo car, no way we would have been able to fix the stuff we did last season with as good results. In a way, Dai's car is like a modifed or sprint car, we use tricks from that industry to make it work better!

Eric, I may owe you a Stanich burger for our V8/V6tt discussion when you make it up to Portland, but on this subject I'm 90% of the way with you. So let's agree to agree on this one!

I understand the reliabilty and linear power offered by the primarily LS run cars, but it's hard for me to accept the "unlimited" approach, as opposed to the "modified" approach, that seems to rule FD. The NASCAR V8 Scion is a prime, extreme example. Another example is the Fiestas running around all these rally events. Ford doesn't even make an AWD version customers can go out and buy, let alone a turbo charged one.

It's kinda like when you wrote about that Juke you were looking at. If Nissan had offered one with a manual for the AWD, I can't imagine the aftermarket not tearing into that motor and platform to come up with a rally car or something fun. I'M digressing into my current lack of faith in the Manufacturers ability to actually provide buildable platforms that people and motorsports teams want to buy. It's what fueled the big three during the 60's. Hell, the 350z is one of the cars that brought Nissan back from the brink here! I just said hell, I'll stop now!

Essa, i was just wondering if the turbo is gonna effect the block in any way. Is it possible to warp the block and cause the back cylinders to go all out of wack? I know theres a lot of cars out there with turbos close to the block, like the TT 300zx, but those are only running like 6-8 pounds of boost and they dont stress as much as yours is.

Its an awesome car though. Love it!

BTW lol at the semi purist discussion :D

I agree with Eric 100%. V8's are so boring. I know it is bad because I think it is strange to see a RX7 and hear a 13B sound.

How are V8's going to inspire any creativity for turbo engines in FD? I know that any real EMS system has lots of ways of eliminating turbo lag. Look at WRC cars, they have no lag and breath through a restrictor. Pectel or Motec have so many control options it is unimaginable unless you have worked with them. I think I could setup a VQ that would be insane. DBW throttle, dual cam control, anti-lag etc. The variables are limitless.

I also have a hard time arguing against the V8 for service and repairs. Any monkey can screw together a V8 that makes 600 hp all day long for around $5k. A super bad ass turbo VQ will cost closer to $30k done right. A lot more money, but much more challenging and rewarding.

I miss the diversity of drifting from a few years ago. Anyone else remember the Riverside RB powered S13 screaming on the banking from back in the day? Or how about Nomuken's ER34?

You cannot build an LS that makes 600 hp all day under competition conditions for $5000, its more like $20,000 plus. For $5000 you get about 450 hp.

Dai's engine for 2011 won't make 600 hp. It will be more like 570 hp and it costs way more than $5000, like 3x more.

Tuning an LS isn't easy and it isn't an everyone can do it deal either like FFFs say. In fact its just as easy or hard as any other motor to get power from. Doing good in pro drifting isn't easy with a V8. You need an easy to set up flexible and adaptable car, an excellent driver and tight cohesive team work.

A knucklehead dropping a junkyard LS1 into his beat ass S13 isn't instantly going to to be a pro drift star by any means.

Going domestic V8 doesn't make it easy or require you to be any less smart or creative either. Winning in drifting has been one of the hardest things I have ever done.

A domestic V8 isnt going to make a Monkey a winner.

Turbo proximity to the block is pretty irrelevant. Pretty much every OEM turbo setup has the turbo right up against the block. The Honda V6 engine actually has the exhaust manifold integrated with the head.

Essa, are you running a scavenge pump for the turbo drain? The placement looks pretty low!

The OEM BMW chassis brace across the tunnel is actually pretty damn impressive.

There's no arguing that a NA V8 will be easier to work on when it comes to hot pit or track side repair. But if my imaginary FD rules were in play, you'd only have a NA V8 if you were drifting a Mustang, Camaro, or Charger. So while your car might be easy to work on, it would suck big time for drifting due to vehicle weight. Want to win? Build a V6 twin turbo S13/14 and suffer some extra weight penalty from the additional cylinders.

My argument is not based on purity. It is based on the fact that drifting would not exist would it not have been for small Japanese turbocharged engines that were built from parts from the big JDM tuning companies like HKS, Apexi, and Trust and put together, fabricated, and tuned by the many legit JDM tuning shops like Top Secret, AP Boss, Garage SPL, etc. The psycho JDM drivers who learned to drift in the mountains of Japan definitely get some credit too. If those crazy ass country bumpkin JDM drifters never started drifting up mountains for fun, Tanner, Rhys, Samuel, Dai, and others wouldn't even have Formula D to be winning and competing in.

I believe FD owes it to the manufacturers, tuning shops, and teams in the US who spent their marketing budgets, and in some cases life savings, building and campaigning small displacement turbo engines in the early days of FD to turn it into the successful series it is today. Formula D can do this by implementing a high tech rule eliminating push rod engines (unless oem engine was) and a cylinders vs. minimum vehicle weight rule.

In the end, having turbo engine manufacturers and tuners getting a financial return from any sport will also spur innovation within our industry. Where do these financial returns go? They trickle back into the products and technology offered to you, the consumer. At the moment all the cars in FD drifting with push rod V8s do not benefit us, the turbocharged engine enthusiast and consumer AT ALL. All push rod V8s in FD does is benefit the push rod V8 performance and racing industry which already has NASCAR, circle track, drag racing, GM, Ford, and Dodge writing checks for it. Believe me, if our industry grows, EVERYBODY who visits MotoIQ benefits from it one way or another from better products, lower prices, and higher quality.

I'm gonna drop my worthless .02 here.
Just 5 years ago, when the drifting community started to get big here in the US, everyone was allowed to use whatever tool (read, car) to compete; whatever engine they please, and suspension mod. THEN, some smart business men realized that drifting could have potential here in the States and wanted to make some profit out of it. Rules were implemented and classes were clearly defined. Drifting was the new rage.
As every "bangwagon jumper" (for lack of word) wanted their slice of pie (let's face it folks, drifting ain't something new, Japanese and European were drifting 20-30 years ago up and down those mountain passes; way before the word "drift" landed here in the States). Anyway, every cool kid wanted to try it out. THAT huge wave killed the sport. Prices of AE86 and S13 skyed rocket !
If I were to compare the popularity of drifting in Japan (for instance) vs. the one here in the US, they would be completely different.
In Japan drifting has always been accepted and has always kept a steady amount of "followers" and die-hard "street racer", no spikes in popularity. Here in the US, not so much. There was nothing at the beginning (5-7 years ago), and all of a sudden drifting is the new shit (and those peeps said: "screw drag racing"), that's what people started thinking. Drifting here in the US got SO popular within only few years that it literally spoiled the fun. It gained SO much momentum right off the bath, that even the Japanese saw an opportunity to get a slice of that pie (D1 series at Irwindale).
Drifting is so controversial because it essentially relies on "PLEASING THE CROWD". You can argue all you want, but if those JDM-wannabes stop coming to those events, drifting looses its momentum, and everyone goes home.
Drifting definitely lost its edge, and that's primarly one of the reason why I do not follow it. It is not based on time, but on coolness, how the hell do you judge coolness? Coolness is essentially an opinion, and we all know opinions are like asshole, everyone has one.
Anyway, I wish drifting gained little popularity here in the States, and people were not so psyched about the sliding factor, that way this "sport" would still be appealing, and the constant increment in HP wouldn't be such a big fucking deal.
Take a look at the D1 series for instance (right before Tsuchiya and Inada quit). Everyone was busy upping the HP game and get not platform, instead of keeping it simple. A lot of pro dirfters in Japan got tired and left.
Miki Ryuji won a championship with the Top Secret S15 then left, why?
Kazama Yasuyuki, did the same.
Kazuhiro Ueo, same.
Nobuteru Taniguchi, same.
And so Orido Manabu and Imamura Yoichi (for a little while).
What happened to Tanaka from Team Orange.
The bottom line is, the rules, the judges, the fans got so fucking demanding and people in the business said fuck it.

Alex: I'm ok with the growth of drifting in the US. You do need money to pour in for any sport to grow. I think the problem is that FD was never really technical enough to keep up with that growth.

The JDM drifters you mention are all of the drifters (plus Ueno) that went to the very first XDC show in the US against Tsuchiya's demands. I don't think it's public knowledge, but Tsuchiya basically told them that if they went to compete in another series that they would never win a D1 championship again. I believe that statement came to be true. Talk about power trippin...

D1 due to Tsuchiya and his politics sucks. The sport is better without him. Hopefully drifting in Japan can get better without his bullshit and maybe we can see more Japanese guys here again. People are gonna hate me but I think the best FD guys and cars can smoke the best of the Japanese.

Let me put it this way, drifting in the turbo 4 days was slow and boring, look at tapes from 2007, tandem 50-100 feet apart, cars hardly being able to link the course. Thats the cool, stylish and soul drifting of the old days that everyone remembers as cool. Too bad they have a fucked up memory. Thats all good if you are into that but for me it was stupid and not enough to interest me very much. Yeah I used to help Benson Hsu a little and probably was one of the first to set up a drift car "road racing style" but my involvement was very little.

Now look at Formula D, fast, big angle, super close tandem and really exciting to watch. The Tanner vs DMac and Dai vs JR battles last year were crazy and so intense. I used to not be into drifting at all in the old days but now its a fast and a very technical sport. Drifting takes all of my ability to make the car work and keep it one step ahead of the competition. I had to really think out of the box and innovate a lot.

I challenge anyone who says its easy with a V8 or V8's take the skill out of it to field a completive car, you will get SMOKED. Any forum fag who thinks FD is lame and they can do better needs to get driving and quit typing. Race car type prep and V8's have taken the sport to a new higher level that puts on a much better show for the spectators.

None of this translates to still pictures so that why so many fan bois don't understand because you can't get it by looking at speedhunters. All of my road race friends except for one who used to think drifting was ghey now like it and are impressed after seeing modern drifting.

I am not against turbo cars in drifting but I work on a high level LS powered pro drift car all the time and I appricate the simplicity and ease of keeping it competitive when the chips are down. I am also out there really doing it on a professional level. I feel that I really know the sport a lot more than nearly anyone who posts stupid shit.

For time attack and road racing when allowed, hell yes give me a turbo, for drifting give me a 427 cdi LS.

spdracerut - yep were using a scavenge pump (electric) to get the oil out of the turbo and back to the pan.

Jay @ Ground Control - Thanks for the tip! I was looking onto that, but didnt have an m spindle on hand to measure the difference, i was just going off the pics on the realoem.com website. Ill have to get a pair of m spindles and play with them during the season :)

Eric & Mike K. - Both of you have very good points. I love turbo cars, and pro built turbo cars help innovation and the aftermarket. I want to run a turbo car for a few reasons, i see oem going towards turbo engines in the near future and straying from big displacement motors for big power and fuel efficiency. As a shop owner, i like to stay current and innovate. Then, om Mikes argument, there is no doubt that fixing a car in a few minutes time is much easier when its normally aspirated. Less components to worry about.

Sorry I was a bit off on my number, but there is a GM crate LSX, 600hp, 620ft/lb for $10k from summit. I also know first hand how much extra tax your sponsor pays on everything. $15k for only 570 hp...... I am not saying that it would be more reliable, but 'cheap' V8's are out there.

My point was not about a kid dropping a V8 into something and easily kicking ass. Way too many have gone that route and that is what turns me off from a diversity standpoint. Pretty soon all cars will have a V8 and then it's just like NASCAR, BORING. If I want to watch a V8 car go sideways, I'll go watch 20 sprint cars making 800 hp slide around at the SAME time for 20 minutes.

Mike
"Any forum fag who thinks FD is lame and they can do better needs to get driving and quit typing."

Any forum fag who thinks professional ice skating is lame and they can do better needs to get skating and quit typing.

That really isn't an argument. Just because people can't be a pro in a certain field doesn't mean that they can't, or shouldn't, have an opinion about it.

Isn't this America. Do what you like to do. Who cares what other people think.

An LSX is an iron block not suitable for this application as it weighs about 80-100 more lbs. It uses a tall deck to get extra CID and it uses shelf components that would not be my choice for stroke to rod ratio. etc.

$15 k for the motor we get is reasonable. I help spec stuff out for it, I should know first hand. We don't have the budget of the other top teams so we don't waste money and shop for good deals.

There is a diversity of V8 tuning going on in FD if you know stuff about V8's. Its nowhere near the specness of NASCAR.

For instance we are using an internal configuration that mimics the LS7 for bore stroke and rod ratio. JR uses some Roush Yates Coyote motor and there are other variants like SBC sprint car long rod 410 cid configurations, 409, stroker small bore, 383 long rod and other motor combos. Lots of different head, cam and intake configs as well. It is not boring, you don't care about domestic engine technology so you are probably not aware of whats out there.

In fact there is more diversity in combos for domestic engines that imports.

I am not a domestic lover by any means, none of my cars are domestic, all of my personal cars are small displacement and turbo but for drifting V8's have advanced the sport and are making it more appealing to a larger audience. I guess in that way its like nascar. But drifting is a lot about the show and the newer cars make a better show.

You are right, this is America and we can all have opinions.

I agree with you that people absolutely 100% have the right to be lame in my book and not give a fuck about what I think about stuff.

I can still think they are lame too! Now please stay on topic.

Mike
"Race car type prep and V8's have taken the sport to a new higher level that puts on a much better show for the spectators."

I guess that's the main difference. You typically won't hear time racers use the word "show." Maybe if drifting was timed like slalom but you would have to be smoking tires all the way through certain designated patches on the track or else there would be time penalties for every patch you missed. That way the judging would be more on how fast you are and if were you were smoking tire all through a section. And there can be instant replay too, to prove if they smoked through or not. Then there would be a mix of drift and race. You would miss the bumper to bumper action but if you had a mirror track like in the X game rally tracks, then it would make it better to see both cars going at the same time and get to see which one actually crosses the finish line first. Another way would be if you had one car start out just a few seconds later than the other and timed both cars. Then there might still be some bumper action, but if one car hits another then they've lost that round. I'm not in drift and don't know how feasible it is.

If I see this in the future, I want credit for it. If you think it's lame, then you have every right to.

Just curious where was your V8 Tundra made? (I won't go after your wrong wheel drive cars :).

How much different does a Ford V8 SOUND compared to a Chevy V8? They sound pretty much the same in my opinion. I know that there are more SBC parts available than any other engine out there, but it is still a V8 at the end of the day. Maybe if it had a flat crank and turned 12,000 RPM it would sound better. Eric got some spares laying around?

I agree with Eric, extra weight for any V8. I don't hate V8's. I just want diversity in cars, remember how awesome IMSA GTP was back in the day? A big part of the awesomeness was all the different engine SOUNDS. That's what a lot of people want to see continue.

@ 1984

I proposed Drift Attack years ago. Timed laps and part of the course had to be drifted and judged for angle. Sort of like Gymkhana. The judges could only add or subtract 2 seconds so they would have very little influence on the lap time.

1984, isn't Gymkhana like this? At the Ken Block event at Irwindale, in the drivers meeting we were told we would have to drift certain parts of the track but their were no penalties for not doing so. The only judged penalties were for hitting and moving cones. The rest of the way it was a puire race like SCCA pro solo.

I actually enjoyed that event because it was clear who won, the guy across the line first. I think if you designed the course so you would have to drift it to be fast, sort of like tarmac rally, or the Ken Block event it would be cool.

Unfortunately the Ken Block event was a huge failure so I don't know if they will be others like it.

Stay on topic? The topic was this guys Z4. Then it turned into a discussion on drift engines, then the current state of drifting, current and past.

"V8's have advanced the sport and are making it more appealing to a larger audience. I guess in that way its like nascar."
That's called "Marketing" Mike (Kojima). Pleasing the crowd before satisfying yourself/ your team.
That alone, down the road becomes boring. Yes you get a monthly paycheck, but are you satisfied to do what you do because you know what the crowd wants to see?
Like Mike Essa pointed out, lots of car companies are steering away from big displacement and go smaller engine with a turbo (due to stricter emission and gas saving).
Driving skill and excitement (during a professional drifting event, no matter what event is) it's NOT all about speed. How about angle? How close the two drivers are when they tandem? How about the apex, a bunch of stuff.
These past few years, I got the sense that the main concern for those drift-organizers (FD staff and other organizers) was first and fore most SPEED. Always advertising speed and how quick a car can accelerate. There are guys (like Taka Aono and his AE86) that can put to shame other new S13/V8 comers when it comes to skill.
Anyway, this debate can go on and on.
I personally would like to see more technical stuff. (kill FD and start something new like a pseudo-Japanese-Gymkhana, much like what Ken Block did few months ago) . Much more diverse.

Wow, this discussion took off this morning!

Essa, can't wait to see how this car turns out. I still remember the only M3 engine I ever drove and it was pure grin. Any other motorsports projects down the line, maybe a time attack car in the works?!

Mike, I was thinking the same thing about Gymkhana when I read your post. Wish it hadn't flopped, but I don't remember any real promotional stuff before it happened.

M-Workz
I guess if you have the ability to add or subtract time then it can even out. I'm saying only add time to someone who didn't drift or smoke their tires through a marked section. You can use the in car camera to prove if they were counter steering through, the drift and smoke you can see on video. Try to take out all the "Subjective Judgement" aspects. You didn't counter steer through that section and we have video to prove it, time penalty. You didn't drift or smoking your tires all the way through the section and we see that on instant replay, time penalty. Take the subjective judging out. The judging that remains will be whether people should be time penalized like a lot of racing events

Mike
I'm didn't know the details of Ken Block's event. I saw the promo video and thought it was just a regular drifting event but on steroids. But that's good to require people to drift certain parts of the track, but instead, to time penalize then if they didn't. Hitting cones, time penalty, good too. Sorry to hear that the event was a failure. Maybe it'll get another chance in the future.

I don't doubt your skills or the staff at Motoiq.

If you painted angle lines on the track in the drift sections and had a video shot from the top, then it would be very easy to see if the car has exceeding that required drift angle. But, sounds costly and I don't know if you can remove paint off tracks that easily.

JDM, boring was drifting a few years ago, circa 2007. Cars hardly linking the course, far apart tandem, slow. To me it was boring. Watch some of those old FD reruns and you will know what I mean.

Since about 2009 its gotten fast, and spectacular and now I like watching it. There is no way that it is more boring. There is more technical diversity in engine, drivetrain and suspension development than ever before to push performance higher. The cars are now actualy more techicaly interesting and diverse than ever before if you are capable of understanding thing technicaly.

It has just become fashionable amoung certain circles that are fashionable in themselves to bash V8's. I hear stuff like NASCAR, all the same, just another car with a V8 etc when actually as an engineer, it is farther than ever from the truth. In 2007 the cars were like modded street cars, and "cool" to me, who cares.

Now you have stuff like engineered cages, a lot of suspension development and sophistication, race type drivelines and brake systems. The cars are more like World Challenge or Grand Am cars than street cars. To a geek like me, the new cars are infinitely more interesting and adjustable than the old "cool" cars.

The judging is based on speed, angle and style. There is one judge for each element. Speed is measured in two places on the course and the data is available for the judges as is instant replays.

The event has nothing to do with pleasing myself or pleasing the team, I am paid to help us do our best to win. That is what we strive to do.

More people sit at home and read about drifting than the amount of people who show up at an event. Who cares what kind of motor a car has in it, drifting is 0% about engines. Its all about who can drift better than the other, how much smoke and angle you can throw out better than the other guy, and nobody reading at home can hear engine sounds through a picture. All engines spin a driveshaft that smoke round rubber donuts. Get over it.

I just think the anti-v8 guys are trying to hard to separate themselves from the spit ding crowd, like using something made in the USA makes you a redneck. Thats the only reason i see with my own 2 eyes. Go ahead and have your 4 cylinder turbo drift cars. The guy with a v8 in front of you is gonna lay down more smoke, gonna be having an easier time keeping the power down, and be able to focus on driving style a lot easier than you are because you gotta worry about keeping power down to the ground and not losing boost and fucking your run up.

I think being a media guy in drift for years has given me a great opportunity to develop a non biased opinion on how drifting works. I just speak of what works best.

Like Mike said above me, FD cars are comparable to World Challenge and Grand Am. If you take a high end FD car and change suspension settings a bit and add a window net, and put Andy Pilgrim or Lou in the seat, im 100% sure it can run Long Beach just like the others. You guys should be grateful you have eyes to watch and appreciate what you are seeing in the sport.

Dave: Drifting is different things to different people. For Mike K it is suspension and chassis, for somebody like me it would be the engine, ecu, and electronics, for a driver its the setup, etc. you get my point. As a media guy, I'm assuming you probably don't appreciate the details behind drift cars or else you wouldn't have stated that drifting is 0% about engines. I find your statement confusing since a drift car is actually propelled by an engine.

If you're talking about the crowds, standings, event coverage, and all that other bullshit, then I can see your point. But MotoIQ isn't about those things is it? MotoIQ is about the technical details of all things automotive performance and racing. Therefore, we are discussing engines and I don't think I need to "get over it".

As for FD cars being comparable to WC and GA, I would say there are a select few in FD that are. Its hardly the entire FD field that would be comparable unless you're talking about the lower classes of WC and GA.

Whatever the case, Formula D does throw an entertaining show (circus actually) and in the end that's what counts. Never mind the diminishing size of the Japanese engined performance industry. My initial statements were made to suggest that FD should support the Japanese turbo engine performance industry that made the event as successful as it is today and not necessarily that a VQ is better than an LS, etc. and to express my personal preference of a twin turbo VQ over an LS(x). I am by no means a JDM fan boi and think that every drift car should have an SR20DET in it.

Im talking about crowd pleasing. The average guy in the stands doesnt know anything about how the car is built, they just wanna see a show and complain if they dont like a certain engine swap because the people on the forum they hang out on, complain about it too...and its the cool thing to do. I have a fine understanding about what goes into every sort of competition car, but you wont catch me debating technical stuff with Mike and people like you. Theres no way, you guys will eat me alive, so its just common sense im talking about crowd pleasing and the common drift fan.

And i did say the high end FD cars. I never said anything about "the entire FD field", so you really dont need to make an argument about that.

Anyway, everyone in FD (mechanics, drivers, etc), work for the crowd. They arent in the business in building high horsepower turbo engines, wasting time and money maintaining them, etc. You might as well ask FD to extend the 5 minute rule to 30 minutes, if you are dead set on seeing everyone back in a grassroots state of mind. FD is a show where time and dependability is very important, and its clear what engines are easier to work on and more reliable.

Yeah this is MotoIQ and technical discussion is paramount, but you guys started the v8 vs OEM bickering :P

Yeah that does make sense in regard to crowd pleasing. I've never considered the crowd which is why I'll probably never land a marketing job...

You are right about the average guy in the stands who doesn't know jack about how a car is built. I'm not even going to mention the average chick because they are there because the guys are. Unfortunately the bulk of the people don't want to know how the cars are built either. All they want is a fake ass JDM drifter style body kit and some hella flush wheels in most cases.

Ok, let me change my bickering: FD should impose a rule where you cannot change engine manufacturers. Yet another way to eliminate pushrod V8s while still keeping the factory pushrod V8 cars at a disadvantage with their massive heft. This could potentially also keep money in the Japanese performance and racing industry. The only problem with this idea is that the Japanese V8s are not developed although many of the cylinder heads flow ridiculous CFM.

Whatever, fuck it. I'm over trying to support this industry! Pushrods it is...

Eric, I'm LOLing right now! So you're saying we might see some trick LS parts from Cosworth soon? :)

I do think that Nissan and Toyota put out good V8s though. I kind of wish there was a trick Honda V8 with a wicked Vtec pulling to a ridiculous 7-8k RPM. Now that would be SWEET!

No, LS parts man. I have a better solution:



This is a supercharged Nissan VK45 that Cosworth UK did for a customer. More compact than an LS(x) and probably similar in weight with or slightly lighter with the blower, but you can rev the piss out of it (9krpm). Pair this with a set of properly built cylinder heads, cams, and I nice long tube header and I'm sure it would do pretty damn good. She got power band for days...put a week on it.

I think an LS is smaller, the heads are tiny.

Yeah but its a Cosworth built engine. You have to take out a second mortgage on your home to afford that.

I come from a traditional road racing background - Porsches of all things - you really can't get more traditional than that. I didn't get drifting for a long time but in it's current form (i.e. Formula D) I think it's hit a sweet spot. It has immediate gratification (like drag racing), someone wins and someone loses. Americans have pretty short attentions so that is key. We found over in the Middle East they do too so drag racing is popular over there as well. Between the speeds, challenging track setups and the level of skill (read you gotta go all out to win) you are introducing a pretty high level of excitement (potential carnage) and again Americans love that. What we can't lose is (would be bad for the sport) is the diversity in the cars entered.

I think we are at an interesting point in the progression of the sport. The competition has escalated quickly and the cost to compete at the highest levels is moving up rapidly. People are trying to find cheap ways to be competitive and obviously push rod V8s are a way to do that. The money available from sponsors hasn't followed as quickly so a lot of teams are stuck trying to figure out how to keep up however they can, Matt Powers for example with his new LS power plant. If we can keep the the momentum going factory sponsorship will increase and you'll see teams begin to form behind product lines - Nissan, Scion, Ford, Mazda and yes BMW. They'll want manufacturer aligned cars (i.e., engine and chassis the same) because that has more relevance from a marketing standpoint. This could create some great battles and enthusiasts will align behind their favorites and cheer them on. It was great to see BMW, Chevrolet, Ferrari, Porsche, Ford all battling it out in the GT glass this year at the ALMS 12 hours of Sebring. The field hasn't been that diverse in a long time and peopled loved it.

For those that say, Formula D is destroying the fun. You can't compete with your simple 400hp turbo S13 anymore and that's killing it for the "REAL" enthusiasts. Dude, come on, this is the highest level of the sport. It's not for the enthusiast anymore. It's where most will only dream of getting to and that's fine. What IS important is the continued development of amateur feeder series and a ladder system that begins to define the path to Formula D or other top level series that may form. Let's face it, the most popular racecar in the US is a Mazda Miata and I don't see them racing at LeMans.

As long as FD doesnt become INDY where they all use the exact same engine, itll always be interesting and competitive, to me at least. Im still waiting for a Ford 302 or something, but ill probably be waiting for a long time.

That being said, i bet a 4 cylinder or two, give the V8's a run for their money this year. Should we make a prediction thread in the forum? Oh yes, i think so.

BTW i just wanted to tell Mike Essa that inline 6's are so pure and beautiful. I think they are the best road racing engines.

Love that Scion is going back to the four cylinder for Aasbo's car. Tanners car with a V8 basically mounted in the front seat was a gross exception to the rules that everyone else is following. I think Aasbo is going to kill it in that car.

"Now that's not a knife! This is a knife"

Eric, I want to know what car that thing is going in and where I can meet the owner to drive it? I don't think a lot of people know that thrill of passing that 7k rpm mark and having your car sound like something as close to formula 1 as they'll get. They very few that i've driven were automotive musical bliss!

ANYWAY ! back to the topic, I wish Mike Essa a awesome start at Long Beach, and keep us updated on the development of the Z4 !

Ill be sure to send Mike K updates as the build progresses. Today, ill be working on the v mount intercooler/ radiator set up, mounting the speedway style rear sway bar, and build a front bumper bar. Hope to be on the dyno late next week.

V-mounted Z4.

tits.

A turbo BMW going against Japanese cars with American- platform based engines is as diverse as it gets. I look forward to seeing and hearing Mike Essa's car on the internet soon.

I like the V8 cars. I like the turbo cars. The preferences belong in classes with courses that allow them to demonstrate their specific characteristics.

Drifting needs marketing dollars to survive. The money typically has a basis in what car is used. Most marketing money goes into new cars. Most aftermarket dollars go into newer late model cars. So for top-tier motorsports marketing what car do you need to use? A late model car that someone can go out and buy and for which they can get parts.

What aftermarket house is ramping up to push the Genesis coupe? Who's the big sponsor behind the 370Z? Who's doing the RX-8 or MX-5? Who's gonna drop a Tundra engine in a Tacoma and go for it? Get those in and competitive and you get sponsors to pay for the sport. Otherwise it will stay grassroots and the simplest, cheapest, most effective tool wins. No manufacturer is going to sponsor their chassis with some other manufacturer's engine in it and vice versa. The mix and match is very creative and effective, but is not a simple and lucrative business model.

On a more related note: I'd add a u-joint to that steering shaft inside the car so the wheel doesn't sit at a funky angle, and so it doesn't punch the driver in the face in a bad crash.

Like Eric and MWorkz mentioned, I'd like to see more turbos in FD.

Even with a basic antilag program/hardware a 2.5 liter turbo can be equal or greater in response to a 5 liter NA. Usually in a clubman type rallycar with a throttle kicker, bypass valve or DBW you can achieve great results with up to 20% bypass/throttle opening. Anymore than this and the car will push/runon more and more under braking. In drifting you don't rely on front brakes like you do on a stage or circuit so you would be able to bypass more air, more than likely creating too much boost on overrun. This can then be tuned for driver preference, more or less response etc. If you look at ERC Division 1 cars the majority use the Tibuc response valve. This is more or less a very well made but simple throttle air bypass which, with a 0-100% dial in the cabin, allows the driver to control the amount of bypass/response for varying condtions.
The most effective antilag system, which is used on any WRC is a fresh air/EGR type system which eliminates the need to move additional air through the engine, instead sending it directly pre turbo. Audi Sport used this as early as 85 on certain events and TTE re-introduced it in the mid 90s on the Grp A Celica.
I'm not sure why antilag hasn't become popular for teams in FD but I guess the majority have gone to V8s. It does take a good amount of tuning and experience but once dialed in, it is really amazing what kind of torque a small engine can make (especially combined with variable cam timing).

Motec, Pectel, Autronic, Vipec and GEMS(not AEM) all have very good ALS programs.

And I really like this car Mike, top notch.

Mike K: I think the LS is longer (it has larger bore centers) and has a taller deck height than the VK45. While the heads are larger, I'm not sure which engine is taller overall. What I do know is that the VKs heads CNC ported flow massive cfm.

Dave: plenty of people have spent their 2nd mortgages on stupider things haha.

Bruce: this engine doesn't go in a car. 3 of these engines replaced 3 Lamborghini V12s....in a race boat.

Jasonnrg77: I couldn't agree more which is why I proposed the hypothetical rule of same make car and engines only. Not only is it in the best interest of teams and sponsors, but it prevents the pushrod engines as the cheap way out.

Bill: You said, "Motec, Pectel, Autronic, Vipec and GEMS(not AEM) all have very good ALS programs."

True, but only Pectel is used in WRC currently (as in the Ford Fiestas). The anti-lag control strategies and compensations are ridiculously flexible in Pectels and catered toward extremely aggressive anti-lag strategies under all conditions. In Pectel, the sky's the limit with Drive by Wire anti-lag. The only problem with WRC style anti-lag is that the turbo becomes a consumable because it is so aggressive, but who said racing was cheap?!

It seems like Pectel, TAG/Mclaren and Marelli are the systems used with factory teams now. I mentioned the others because they are attainable for realistic budgets and do have very good software for antilag:) We have experience with antilag on all of them (including older Pectel from Mountune/YB) but would obviously like to use a current Pectel:)

From my understanding (I'm not an engineer:) shockloading of a group N type antilag is more aggressive than a WRC antilag due to the amount of retard/cut you have to use to prevent overrun push(with a good amount of air moving through the engine, instead of around). We usually will change turbos after 3 events. Thats close to 800 miles with fairly aggressive antilag.

Bottom line, Michael's Z4 better be using some aggressive antilag. DBW has the ability to make it so so smooth.

Eric, has Cosworth done any valvetrain development on the VK? Thats the other major pita in an unsupported engine platform.

A race boat? I guess UK VICE is way high roller compared to Miami :)

Bill: I think no matter how you do it, anti-lag is ultra hard on turbos. This is especially true at high altitudes when turbo speeds are already supersonic. Are you guys running the works built YB powered cars? We sell some of those YB turbos once in a while. HOLY CRAP they are expensive!!

Mike K: Yes we have developed both heads and valvetrain, but all of it has been for a certain Japanese customer for use in Japanese racing.

Bruce: It's not Miami vice, but rather Abu Dhabi Vice. And after Mike's story, we know they are ballin outta control!

Eric,
We ran an Ex-Works 96 spec Escort in three '06 events, then XGames. It was essentially the final pre-wrc spec, 7 Spd Ricardo gearbox, Mar-M 247 turbine, air injection boost pack. The owner had a spare new YB complete in a crate from mountune that was 35K. Now that the cars are past the extended homologation though, the parts have become cheaper and cheaper. I guess cosworth has recently started making aluminum YB blocks? Or possibly a private party?

Offshore powerboat engines are so insane. I was in Miami with my girlfriend on vacation last month and happened to be there during the boat show. It is insane how ballin you have to be to buy a new power boat and operate it. The norm for big power engines seems to be in the 100K+ range, for 1.

Is it just me or do those people who argue for the "fulfillment" and "challenge" of 30K timebomb engines that are impossible to work on and made from unobtanium have way too much money on their hands? If sound and being expensive and being uncompetitive are all you want you should really be complaining about how nobody has the balls to run a Ferrari Flat12 or blasting Mike Esse for dropping the M5 engine.

Or, to put it another way, since when did simple and cheap become bad things?

Daewoo: I think you were a bit late to the conversation. Nobody is arguing for the "fulfillment or challenge" of 30k time bomb engines.

- M-Workz, myself, and others are bringing up the point that push rod V8s should not be allowed because they do not spur innovation nor do they help the "tuning" industry that made FD what it is today.

- Jasonrg77 others are saying that pushrod V8s shouldn't be allowed because it does nothing for the future of FD because large OE manufacturers will not sponsor the series or teams

- Others and myself are saying not to allow pushrod others because they it might as well be a dirt modified event. Every car will sound the same and that's boring shit to watch (at least for people like us who care).

- The rest are saying who cares. Allow whatever the fuck people want to use because its good for the event as a whole due to greater action, better reliability, etc.

Really though, I think the last thing we should be talking about are 30k exotic engines. The rules really shouldn't be allowing 2200lb. dry carbon fiber, tube framed, Roush engined, capable of being homologated in ALMS Mustangs either. Screw a 30k engine. How about a $500,000 race car?

Bill: that car must be pretty damn cool. Do you have a link to some pics of the car? I bet some of the guys at Cosworth would like to check them out. Yeah we have "ally" BD and YB blocks. We also do an annual run of YB, BD, and DFV heads now too. If you ask me, the three years Cosworth was out of F1 was good for the vintage race engine market. :)

Are there any manufacturers out there who would love to sponsor but can't because all the cars have Chevy engines? I'd bet you dollars to donuts Matt Powers would run a Nissan engine if Nissan said "I want to sponsor you but the Chevy lump has to go."

The problem with innovation and tuning, in my opinion, is that Chevy is out competing the traditional tuners. Chevy performance is selling factory warranted, 400 hp engines for 6 grand that are light and small. The lack of innovation is really shown, in my opinion, by the industries failure to compete with this.

Ford doesn't compete, Honda sure as hell doesn't offer anything in the ballpark, ditto Toyota, ditto Nissan. Maybe Mitsu/Hyundai will with the 4B/Theta thing, but really not yet.

If you look at the history of grassroots motorsports, I think you can say the Chevy LS is to us what the Flathead Ford was to guys in the 30s, what the original small block was to the flatheads in the 50s, what the Honda B-Series was to the iron V8s in the early 90s and what the turbo 6s were to Honda B-series in the early 2000s.

And yes, I completely agree with you about the costs. I'm all for banning half a million dollar cars. Actually, I think it would be an awesome series if you had teams build their cars in a central location, under the supervision of the series, with off the shelf parts, for X dollars. That way instead of making rules to control costs, make cost the main rule.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I would hope that if you have the backing of the US government, assembly line production methods, and the marketing dollars generated by NASCAR, NHRA, circle track, etc., then they better produce a good product. Good? Yes. Innovative? Far from it. There is absolutely no innovation in GM releasing a warrantied engine for $6k whatsoever. All they are doing is mixing and matching stock components, testing it, selling an engine with no emissions devices, and slapping a warranty on it. All of the components have already been validated via durability testing in the OE develop stage because they are using all OE components. That's pretty damn un-innovative if you ask me. And if everybody liked their easy way out on a plate, MotoIQ would not exist today because we would all be dumb asses installing bigger engines in lighter cars.

The fact that the domestic performance and racing industry has been around for abour 40 years longer than the import performance and racing industry might also have something to do with GM Racing's success. So long as people can slap in low tech stick motors (push rod), the "industry" will not have a chance to respond to the LS because all of the money will be put into LS platforms. One thing's for sure is that is sure as hell isn't the LS engine builders and parts manufacturers who made FD what it is today.

For the record, if you read above near the top, I never said I was anti-V8. I am anti-V8 in anything that didn't come with a V8. I believe that V8s should be able to be used in a light ass car so long as there's a minimum weight rule making things equal for the pigs that came with V8s from the factory.

There is OEM involvement, Chris Forsberg-Nissan, Conrad Gruenwald-GM, Vaughn Gittin Jr- Ford, Ken Gushi- Scion, Frederick Aasabo- Scion. The involvement is usually just cars, parts and engines and with the exception of Jr and the Scion programs not a whole lot of money.

Falken turned down Nissan because cars, engines and parts were not enough to offset a Nissan engine development program.

Don't forget Sam Hubinette with the two car SHR team, fair bit of Dodge sponsorship there.

A Duratec, Ecotec, 4G, SR w/ VE head, VQ and definitely Ford YB are all motors that could work. The path has been laid out so well for all four.

Why bother though? I guess if you just want to stay competitive, the same engine everyone else has would be the best option. I'm not for it but without a rule change I don't see how the majority of competitive cars will run anything but a v8.

I'm glad Mike is running an inline 6 turbo. I am really excited to see this thing run. With antilag.

Eric,
there are a couple (not so good) photos in this gallery.
http://www.dentsport.com/gallery/motorsports/?album=8&gallery=67

Lighter than most turbo fours, small because of the evil nasty "sticks," 400 hp, 26 mpg in a medium sized sports car ... I don't know what your definition of innovative is, but I haven't seen a lot that can beat a Chevy LS in the metrics that matter.

And it's not like there's this clean line between domestic and import tuning. How many import tuning companies are offering kits to put bigger engines in smaller cars? Whether it's a K20 in a CRX (bigger engine, smaller car), a B6 in a Festiva (bigger engine, smaller car), an S54 in a Z4, or an LS2 in an FD, it's been going on forever.

Asking people to spend more money on less performance for the sake of innovation is not marketable, and since all industries are ultimately about money ...

If other manufacturers want to compete in drifting, they need to step up and offer affordable ways to get VK45s, N63s or URs with warranties.

As for the tuning industry, they'll do what they always do and follow the money, hence the reason there are more tuning firms offering k20 parts than Maserati parts.

One more thing. Real innovation seems to come more easily from direct cost controls than rules about engine/platform combinations. Look at Lemons or the 200X challenge cars.

Bill: Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

Daewoo: I think we're talking about two different things. You appear to be talking about innovative to the consumer/general public whereas I'm talking about innovative for powering a race car. The LS is lighter than most cast iron turbo 4's. It is not lighter than aluminum turbo 4's (including the old school sand cast SR20DET). Fuel mileage and 400hp really don't mean much in a drift car.

I think when pro drifting becomes as large as something like the Nationwide series with a whole ladder feeder system, then manufacturers might step up with competitive engines. For now drifting is only just a little bit bigger than Circus Vargas. I doubt we'll see anything but LSes for a while.

I agree with you on the direct cost controls being more effective, but that usually doesn't work in multi-platform racing as there's no way to "control" really anything without a massive tech system (ala Grand Am). FD has tried my limiting suspension modifications (but not engines for some reason) to no avail. Lemons gets by because people are mostly there having fun. When big money gets involved, direct controls cannot exist except in single make spec series (e.g. Porsche Cup, Ferrari Cup, Lotus Cup, etc.).

Anyhow, we are really arguing a moot point. FD isn't going to do shit about it. I'm just gonna go to Irwindale in a couple weeks and enjoy the circus like everyone else.

Wow, I can't believe how long this discussion has gotten.

FD won't change unless the teams and sponsers want it to. I was really suprised by the inclusion of the Scions, because there was some controversy! Teams might take different approaches if they see other teams putting up consistent wins, points, etc. What is it they say, "sometimes the only way to win is to copy the winner."?

So, what we need is some crazy 7mgte powered mk3 supra or m3 powered z4 to consistently win and maybe we'll see teams get more innovative!

Formula D has a feeder pro am series. XDC is affiliated as a Formula D feeder series as well.

I think a lot of disenfranchised FD fans are liking XDC due to the lower level of prep cars.

As far as the tuner market goes, drifting is bigger than import drag, road race and time attack by a large margin.

Mike called me from the dyno tonight, 600 whp @ only 12 psi of boost with a conservative tune. I told him not to abu dhabi it!