posted on September 13, 2011 22:00
More Power for the APD Acura TSX K24 A2 Engine!
By Jonathan Donner
In the continuing development of the HPD sponsored, APD Motorsports Acura we will focus on the next stage of engine development of the car.
At the APD Acura's first outing in the MotoIQ Pacific Tuner Car Championships the car proved to be very capable with the team putting the car on the podium in 3rd place behind Mike Kojima and Dai Yoshihara's Nissan Sentras. Mike and Dai's cars are extremely well prepared and though the Acura gave them a good fight throughout the race, the team found that the Kojima built Sentra's with lighter weight had a distinct advantage in torque from mid corner to corner exit and were better able to take advantage of this torque delivery and weight in 3rd and 4th gears.
The Acura, a substantially heavier car, had better high end horsepower and a better suited 5th gear ratio for the long banking at California Speedway. Ultimately this made the car faster than the Sentras on the banking but had it falling short when Yoshihara and then Kojima were able to get their noses in on the tighter infield road course corners.
To solve this torque problem and attempt to even the performance playing field for the next Pacific Tuner Car Championships race APD began with the next stage of powertrain development designed to increase the K24A2 motor's torque and power production throughout the rpm range.
|Will the APD Acura be able to run down Team MotoIQ's Nissans? With a lot more power it will sure be a closer race!
|Before this round of mods, the APD Acura TSX was still faster down the straights than the much lighter and more nimble Nissans. With even more power and torque, it's going to be hard for Team MotoIQ to keep up.
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 12:42 AM
I can't really digest the words "manufactured in China with a relatively low price point." sorry.
There are other options out there:
These of course are probably more expensive than the BC's, but you get what you pay for.
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 3:28 AM
maybe give that section a re-read
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:17 AM
@ JDMized, We couldn't either...that's why we went with the Blueprint Cams.
The IPS, Kelford, Jun, and Toda's are all great choices for the K series as well.
For our application we spent quite a bit of time researching the solution for "our" individual needs and ultimately made the decision to go with BP based on a number of additional factors as well: These guys engineered and manufacture an extremely high quality product, have developed the modified Vtec actuator to compliment the cams, have extensive personal experience building Honda Touring Car race engines as well as extremely potent and reliable time attack and drag engines, in addition they are located in Walnut,CA (8 miles from the Acura's West Coast home)they provided top notch service installing and setting up the cams and actuator for this project.
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:28 AM
Looking at that torque curve, you should be able to lower the VTEC engagement point by at least 600 rpm. You lose the "feel" but gain a much smoother torque curve. The engagement point in my S2000 was lowered to 4400 rpm(tuned of course) and the increase in torque and lack of VTEC "kick" transformed it into a different machine!
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:48 AM
I agree with @sobe_death above.
Was the VTEC "kick" left in for a reason?
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:49 AM
These K-series motors always amaze me with how much power they make with minor bolt ons.
As I recall, your tank weighed in somewhere around 3000lbs, correct? Looks like you've got a little more room for power, which means your car will be stupid fast on the straights. Rut-roh for the rest of us. :)
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:53 AM
@ sobe: Looking at the graph, the big cam is flat at 5000rpm, then surges at 5500rpm, and the small cam peaks at 4500rpm, then falls on its face after ~4700rpm. If they lowered the VTEC engagement point 600rpm, they'd lose that peak at 4500rpm, and the big cam would still be groggy at that RPM. If anything, the small cam can be a little more aggressive to ease that transition, but lowering the VTEC engagement point would just make noise, not power.
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:53 AM
Hey don't help them that much! :)
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:54 AM
JDM, BC cams are NOT being used.
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 8:05 AM
@ sobe_death & pk386: Actually guys we tuned for optimum power delivery across the rpm range in our a racing environment based on gear ratios, corner speeds and a number of other factors - the "sweet spot" as far as consistent power delivery with this component set up in a competition environment is with the X over point exactly where it is, also during the tuning process part of the equation is testing on both sides of the "sweet spot" with all engine management parameters which was done as well. I have asked Mitch Pederson from MP tuning to jump in here at some point and go into detail for you guys!
As far as Vtec "kick" that has absolutely nothing to do with what our goals are in a purely racing environment, that would would be applicable to a street car in the sense of perceived purely visceral value for an upgrade.
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 8:06 AM
wow, I wish i could find data on cams like that for my engine.
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 8:14 AM
@ Rockwood: on the Vtec X over you hit the nail on the head while I was writing my last post:) on the weight/hp issue: "Tank" that's not nice...lol hey wait a minute we ressemble that comment:) Actually Steve we are at 2840lbs with 1/2 a tank and driver so we are a couple of HP over right now, car was quite good in 5th at Autoclub and your right it will be quite a bit faster on the straights everywhere, our issue now will be to see with our current gearing and tq output how we do on 3rd gear corners. You guys with your new turbo set up and potentially stickier rubber are most likely going to be right up there with us my friend:)
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 8:17 AM
@ GCMBob: what kind of engine are you running and what are your goals?
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 8:44 AM
@ HAR: Don't worry about the "tank" comment, we used to be the "tank" at well over 2500lbs wet with driver (now 2450lbs) in the now defunct SE-R Cup until we went on an extreme diet. We actually plan on revisiting that at a later date, since we can probably find more weight to cut and either relocate it (we have zero ballast right now), or just cut it to help our poor transmission out and reduce power (ah, turbo).
I'm surprised at your weight, actually. I would've thought that sucker was well over 3000lbs. "Tank", you're not. Chubby would be a better term... ;-p
You guys going to cut power down a little, or add fuel/ballast?
Stickier rubber, maybe. Wider rubber, definitely. We also plan on doing some more tweaks to our front suspension, as we're only at -1.75* of camber up front right now. The outsides of our tires will definitely appreciate it!
See you at Buttonwillow, you'll love that track if you haven't run it, though your "wide load" might not appreciate some of the transition sections... ;-p
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 8:46 AM
@ Mike: I'm going to help them as much as I can. That way, there are no excuses coming from anyone when I mop the floor with all of you suckers! ;-p
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:06 AM
i have a dual Beams 3SGE in an altezza. I was just going to bump the compression to 13.5 or something. You CAN get cams for it but i have never seen data on them that shows that kind of across the board gain. Impressive.
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:09 AM
@ Rockwood: Thanks Steve, We have been on an agressive diet plan from the begining of the build and only missed our goal by a few extra twinkies and burgers lol...:) Dry the car is at GA/WC spec of about 2600lbs with the OEM hood, trunk and glass intact. Plans for 2012 season include CF hood and trunk and formed lexan to replace all the glass. We are actually in process of replacing the oem battery with a relocated Braille CF unit and for now going to add a little strategically located ballast to compensate for now. We currently have the same camber issues up front as you do,(Limited at -2 right now) but I believe we are going to have this solved by BW:)
Thanks and we will see you there:) We have run BW in the past in a number of different driveline configurations:(Front engine AWD, Rear engine RWD and Mid engine RWD) This will be the first time in FWD so should prove an interesting learning experience! (Hey let's use some driving teamwork at BW...Headline reads: "Teams forge alliance to gang up on faster cars at BW...lol:)
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:09 AM
Thanks for the update! Is there a specific reason why they opted for AEM EMS over Hondata K-Pro?
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:35 AM
@ EricL: The K-Pro is a great set up for the K20 series, but as we described in the article for a fresh build, upgrading from a factory ECM on a K24 the AEM series 2 PnP is a complete, extremely competent and refined solution straight out of the box.
No need to aquire a wiring harness from third party supplier, source specific oem ecu's for conversion, shipping back and forth etc...
AEM unit is complete PnP with harness straight out of the box and has some very nifty additional features including PnP Wideband UEGO integration, Traction Control, great data logging capability, and PnP integration with Racepak Data/Dash systems.
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:42 AM
OIC, I have an '04 RSX-S and K-Pro was developed specifically off/for our models; forgot we don't need to do the harness, etc...
How do you like AEM EMS so far? How's drivability? I have ITBs and managed/tuned by K-Pro. A few knowledgeable people have told me that I can probably benefit from AEM EMS Series 2 but there isn't that much information out on Series 2 and K Series.
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:21 AM
We will see who does the floor wiping :)
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:27 AM
LOL:) I will not engage in blatant smack talking...:) Can you say "still working on final drive math" :)
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:32 AM
@ HAR: You got to shake it, before you bake it!
@ Mike: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_90tfqwXc0A
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:35 AM
@ EricL: Everything is quite good with the AEM series 2 Pnp! The reason there is not much info out yet is that it is a completely new product for the K series!
We just did the first K24 and Bisi at Bisimoto just did some great work with it on the S2000 F series.
Contact Mitch Pederson at email@example.com for specific details on implementation with your ITB's! I personally think it would work quite well for you.
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:38 AM
Just curious as to why you didn't consider a roots blower or some other form of forced induction?
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:40 AM
@ Rockwood: WIN! I love that commercial:)
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 11:12 AM
@ Dusty Duster: Good question and point!
Our goal this year was to demonstrate what could be done to build a competetive and reliable car on a reasonable budget utilizing oem honda parts sourced through the Honda Racing Line program and select "high value, reasonably priced" parts from the aftermarket.
We felt this build/project route complimented the basic spirit of the MotoIQ MPTCC Series!
Now for 2012 MPTCC Series (having the entire winter to work on the project) we are looking at developing a reliable, quality, forced induction package for the motor utilizing key oem and aftermarket components, at a reasonable cost as well. Part of the issue was solid engine management, and now that AEM has provided that component we are on the way!
Also we have to keep up with the Jones's or we will get run over...lol:) Martin and Steve are just about finished with their forced induction motor upgrade:)
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 11:25 AM
@GCMBob & Mike Kojima: On the 3SGE I am going to reffer you to Mr. Kojima!
Any input on this motor platform, being a former TRD engineer Mike?
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 11:56 AM
Needs more downforce :D
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 12:03 PM
@ Andrew Brilliant: Thanks Andrew, yes it does actually, (the front end only at this point) we just had time for a simple front splitter and a quick belly pan for Auto Club.
We are going to develop and implement the aero over the winter and will definately get in touch with you for input:)
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 12:13 PM
Very cool, FWD has a very special relationship with aero... I'll be looking forward to it!
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 12:17 PM
Are you still in Japan Andrew? Shoot me a pm with up to date contact info plz. Thanks Jonathan
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 12:26 PM
I cant seem to find you in the member list to send a message, strange. But my email is firstname.lastname@example.org. I'm in the US for a couple more weeks.
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 1:20 PM
Jonathan - Great, thorough read! I think you should add some weight in the form of a WAI kit :)
I hope all this trash talk results in some great racing and video(wink, wink).
Oh, and Mike Welch is the MAN!
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:18 PM
If you need to add weight, just let me drive.
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:25 PM
@Jamal, yes I read that section before I posted my comment.
I know they went with Blueprint Racing.
I probably came off rude, and it wasn't my intention. What I meant was: I don't think they should have considered the BC as a viable solution. People in the business know that BC products are made in China (some people care, others don't).
Ultimately it boils down to longevity/ reliability.
Quality parts in motorsports cost money due to R&D, manufacturing and material choice.
I am not sure if Jonathan Donner and his stuff considered other options (as it is not mentioned in the article), but there are other options out there.
Anyway, the TSX has to loose some 200-300 lbs :)
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:48 PM
@ Der Bruce: Thank you!
@ Big Dave: I will keep that in mind, I think we have the XL Cobra seat at the shop!
@ JDMized: Not to be rude but just to pass along the facts and our opinion, a little background information for you:
a)We spoke with and researched a number (about 5) of different cam manufactures in the industry prior to our decision - If you read closely the general info was there. b) Not everyone who reads MIQ is in the "industry" so the China point is quite valid. c) A number of quite well known and competetive teams in various forms of motorsport run BC cams, our decision was our decision and personally think you should have a more positive focus about our decision to support a high quality company like Blueprint! (The opinions expressed here are those of the author only:)
Last item: Where exactly would you suggest we find another 2-300lbs to take out of the Acura..lol:)
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 3:34 PM
@ HAR: One word: Convertible. :)
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 3:37 PM
@ Rockwood: Awesome! LOL... Let me check the rule book and get with Andrew Brilliant on the Aero implications:)
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 3:38 PM
There is only one kind of weight loss that means there is no more to be lost. The one that costs more money than you have!
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 3:42 PM
@ Andrew Brilliant: Yes Andrew this is a budget concious build:)
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 3:59 PM
Very impressive gains!
I still have a soft spot for these cars : )
Screw the budget, feel free to send HPD parts my way ;-)
Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:00 PM
Mike, have you or Dai, checked any info on the 6 psd gox of the UK Almeras, its from the same chassis family as B15 its the N16
here is a link to the layout of box
and here are some ratios
Final Drive 3.8120 or the xtrail with 6 spd
Final Drive 4.428
Thursday, September 15, 2011 12:45 AM
I am aware that many teams out there run BC stuff. It's their choice, and not because they've been proven to be reliable (for them) that it means they're reliable.
I am just against Chinese crap, period.
As far as reducing weight:
How about getting rid of the power steering?
How about the ABS?
How about a carbon roof to replace the heavy steel?
How about fit some forged wheels? (if I'm not mistaken the wheels you're running are WEDS TC105N, and if I'm right, they're cast).
I'm sure you already gutted the doors, how about fiberglass doors, or even carbon?
Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:32 AM
So what kind of forced induction are you considering? A twin-screw blower would let you keep that linear power band...
Thursday, September 15, 2011 4:55 AM
I have a couple questions about the cam movement pin insertion:
This part of the article focused on the pin limiting the movement of the advance due to over rev.
Was the decision to limit the timing movement on the cams with the pin solely due to over-rev situation?
If so, does the lack of maximum movement negatively affect potential power?
Why wasn't it just decided to limit the advance through the ECU so you could utilize exactly what you wanted? (this is a moot point if the full range of the cam is not needed for max power)
Thanks in advance!
Finally, thank you for all the information and data. It is great to see another build and the steps taken.
Thursday, September 15, 2011 10:09 AM
On the weight issue, these are all good solutions!
Having said that,this build was designed to fit into certain cost parameters and skill sets that the average builder could acomplish, so several of the items like a carbon roof, doors etc... just don't fit the budget or skill set level in relation to overall goals.
I will add though the TSX will be getting a CF hood and trunk as well as lexan for the remaining glass in the car over the winter as these components are readily available in the aftermarket at a reasonable price point.
On the suggestion of PS, and ABS, once again, good suggestions! In this case it is driver preference issue on the PS and performance issue on the ABS, we find that we generate better overall numbers with the ABS in place (able to brake later and deeper with out the potential of wheel lock up and flat spotting expensive tires:) so these items
need to stay for us.
On the Wheels once again cost vs performance irregardless of the cast vs forged issue, these are extremely light, high quality wheels for the price point.
@ Dusty Duster:
Good Suggestion! At this point keeping with the theme of using as much OEM Honda/Acura as possible, that can be sourced through the Honda Racing Line we are looking at the Turbo from the Acura RDX and utilizing the anti lag capabilities of AEM Series 2 Pnp ECM - Think Rally/Rally X style!
Your welcome and Thank You!. In answer to your question, the pin limitation is for a number of factors: a)These specific cams were designed and optimized for 35 degrees maximum advance. b)The modified RSX actuator is designed to allow 50 degrees max and a stock tsx actuator is designed for 25 degrees max on stock cams, the actuall valve to pison clearance will max out at about 45 degrees on a stock K24A2. Instead of machining a TSX actuator it is easier (in the sense of time efficiency and cost) to mechanically limit the RSX Actuator. c)In the event of ECM loss of cam controll this solution provides meachanical limitation. In realtion to over rev it is just adding the proverbial "belt and susspenders" saftey factor, as we all know that it will bend valve train no matter what at a certain level of rpm's:)
Thursday, September 15, 2011 11:39 AM
Anti-lag is hot. :-)
Thursday, September 15, 2011 11:44 AM
@ Dusty Duster: Are you kinda feeling what the Acura will sound like next season:)
Thursday, September 15, 2011 12:03 PM
Love the simple & affordable theme of this build. And I never thought of using the RDX turbo AND adding anti-lag. IIRC, the RDX turbo has variable vanes as well? Might be interesting to see how they handle the strain of anti-lag. Looking forward to next season!!
Thursday, September 15, 2011 12:29 PM
@ speedball3: Thank you! Yes the RDX turbo has a variable system, you hit the nail on the head, anti lag is tough on any system so we are discussing and researching how to make everything have a reasonable service life! Than you again and so are we!
Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:06 PM
Nice! A great way to take advantage of Honda's parts bin.
Thursday, September 15, 2011 8:15 PM
@ econobox: Thank You!
Friday, September 16, 2011 8:10 AM
Just curious, is there anymore room to retard the cam timing on the small lob? or are you guys planning to play manifold games with wave tuning to help smooth out the 'kick'...or just say screw it and help carry the top end tq, as it's dropping off?
Good and fun read. Also glad to see I'm not the only one that limits cam timing the same way (well with aluminum for AVCS).
Friday, September 16, 2011 9:13 AM
Wonder how much power you'll make with the RDX setup, and if you'll even need anti-lag...
Friday, September 16, 2011 10:39 AM
It's early in the process, so I don't want to give away the farm at this point, but our goal will be to be at the HP limit for our weight with about double + the TQ:)
You are on point on the anti-lag issue:
The existing RDX Turbo runs a controlable gate on the exhaust inlet side that closes to increase eg velocity to keep the turbo spooled at low rpm and opens at high rpm...instead of figuring out how to manage this process in a finite fashion we thought it would be more "fun" from a number of different standpoints (insert "Audible and Visual" here) to learn about/develop and implement anti lag and keep it fully spooled all the time:) since the contoll functionality is already built into the AEM Series 2 Pnp EMC along with another nifty feature....traction control.... which I am thinking is going to be helpful in this scenario:)
Friday, September 16, 2011 11:08 AM
If the VGT works the way I think it does (see Holset) it doesn't like lots of heat, so ditching it would probably be best for track use unless you have a budget for buying turbos. If you hack the can-bus (most likely it's control method) you can have a lot of fun with it. Easier is running an air diaphram actuator like a WG and tune it that way....not that I'd know anything about that? ;)
Friday, September 16, 2011 2:02 PM
VW does a lot of stuff with those VNT actuators and either tuning them through vacuum, or with direct solenoids. Either way, makes for a lot of fun, plus you could dial in varying levels of engine braking through the VNT as an exhaust brake.
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