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Project Defiant1: Introduction & Concepting
By Justin Banner

 

When I first bought this $250 S12, I intended to use it as a Rallycross car, but it just remained an idea. I let the car sit until I finally got a better job working as a service writer at a local garage. With the CA20E never really running right, I tossed it and though for a while the idea of a CA20E with a CA18DE head played around in my brain, the cost would have been too much for an engine that wouldn't make much power. While I got rid of the engine, I did keep the transmission. Why? Well, turns out that the front half of the transmission from a KA24 engine will work on the rear half of the CA20 transmission. So, I performed a "bellhousing" swap from a junk KA transmission I had lying around on to the FS5W71C transmission. Both it and the KA24E are sitting, waiting for their new home along with an Eaton M90 Supercharger from a Pontiac Grand Prix GTP, no turbos for this car!

Currently how Project Defiant1 sits, sort of.  It is at the shop with the engine and transmission out.
It's amazing what fits on these S12s from other S-chassis cars.

However, the first thing I want to document is the Goal of Defiant1 and it's pretty simple and hot rod-ish, "have a brutal street car that I can take to a drift event and slide it around, or take to a track day and have some fun." See, simple. I have ideas of swapping a V8 into this car and I may still do it in the future, but if I do it won't be a Chevy going in! No, sir, I'm going against the grain here, why stick in something that everyone is putting in? However, the project is simple and cheapish, so it won't be a Nissan V8 going in, either. If I do a V8 swap, I'm doing a push rod, Windsor built Ford V8! I may use the 351 cubic inch version, but I may go with the 302 cubic inch icon, the "5.0." Time will tell, so don't hold your breath on it just yet. Hell, I may even do something weird, like use a SHO V6, but again don't hold your breath yet. The KA24E will stay in and be there for a while.

You can't deny this wouldn't look cool in the engine bay of the S12.

Speaking of the engine, the KA24E is one of the first items I'm looking at when it comes to making Defiant1 unique and "against the grain." In the plans for this first iteration of Defiant1 I will use the Generation III Eaton M90 supercharger sourced from a L67 GM 3.8L V6 to improve the KA24E's torque and power short-comings. Supercharging engines is nothing new, but I am looking at a past Toyota to not only make it powerful, but also a little more efficient as well! I will design a system similar to the supercharged Toyota MR-2 AW11 chassis and use an electromagnetic clutch to engage it when I want more power! It will come from a simple switch that I will put on the shifter, just like the modified Ford Falcon XB GT seen in the Mad Max series of films! The plan is when I push that button, the circuit will ground and engage the electromagnetic clutch and secondary injectors and feature an intercooler between it and the intake manifold, I may even splurge on a water/methanol injection system!

However, for now the KA24E will be the engine powering my S12.  This isn't it, though Ford Blue does look good on that block!

 

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Comments

Mike Kojima
# Mike Kojima
Wednesday, September 07, 2011 11:10 PM
As editor in chief around here I didn't want to let Justin do this! Oh well we will see how it goes!
JDMized
# JDMized
Thursday, September 08, 2011 12:02 AM
I'd say, stick with the KA24, and turbo it. Those engines are plentiful at the local junkyard, they're dirt cheap, and everyone's swapping them for the SR20DET...lol
Jeff Naeyaert
# Jeff Naeyaert
Thursday, September 08, 2011 12:08 AM
what Mike meant to say is: "The views, opinions, positions or strategies expressed by the author are his alone, and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, positions or strategies of MotoIQ, Mike Kojima or any other employee thereof. MotoIQ makes no representations as to accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, sanity or sweetness of any information in this article and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its use."
Dusty Duster
# Dusty Duster
Thursday, September 08, 2011 2:15 AM
You had me at "Windsor built Ford V8."
Scott Helmer
# Scott Helmer
Thursday, September 08, 2011 2:18 AM
As a reader and semi-frequent commentator around here, I totally want you to do this. I especially want you to put the Ford V8 in there (even though I'm totally a Chevy guy), and I want you to put that Ford 8.8" in there more than I want my next breath, and you wanna know why? Because then this'll be pretty much the Nissan version of what I want to do with my AE86, only with a Ford V8 instead of a Lexus V8, and an 8.8" IRS instead of an 8.8" live axle (oh, and a 5 speed instead of a 6 speed), and god damn it, I totally love how you're pretty much saying "screw you guys, I'm gonna do the complete opposite of what you want"!

As for the KA24, I would personally go with the KA24DE, but I must admit that I feel like that'd go against the whole "Effh you guys" feel of the car. On that subject, I understand that the KA20DE only came in JDM commercial vehicles (basically), but has anybody in the states ever done a built 2.2L long rod KA24 using the KA20 crank and 90mm pistons? I bet that'd make a pretty sick motor.
Fabrik8
# Fabrik8
Thursday, September 08, 2011 4:21 AM
Wasn't this car up for sale in August?
Ockham
# Ockham
Thursday, September 08, 2011 5:36 AM
Definitely unique, but why not use a 3V Mod Motor instead of the Windsor? It'd be somewhat more expensive, but I'd say an aluminum block, fuel injection, and electronic spark are worth it.

The steel wheels are a great choice. I get tired of seeing Volk TE37s and Enkei RPF1s, no matter how good the wheels are. Check out Bassett Racing Wheels if you need oddball sizes. They make wheels up to 15in wide.

Very interested in the custom dash. That's a tough nut to crack, and I'm looking forward to reading about it.
jeffball610
# jeffball610
Thursday, September 08, 2011 7:34 AM
The only thing that keeps me from thinking this is a 16yr old kid bench racing is that it's on MotoIQ. 3 months to complete "stage 1" is still a very large undertaking.
The V6 S12 might be a better starting platform due to the "wide body" style. You also get different front struts and the R200 rear end. There are not a ton of options for the R200, but with it being shared with the Z31 and Silvia, there should be enough to satisfy you without going with a custom rear setup just to get the 8.8.
I would love to see you do this and put haters like me in there place, but it just seems like too much. I had the same aspirations 6 years ago when I bought my 510. I'm still a ways off from my "stage 1" and my plans are slightly less ambitious than yours and my budget much smaller. Good luck and keep us updated.
Justin Banner
# Justin Banner
Thursday, September 08, 2011 9:10 AM
@Fabrik8 - Yes, it was for sale at a couple of points. The last time was because I was trying to get an S13.

@Scott Helmer - Never thought about the KA20DE, though I have heard of forum guys talking about that same idea. I think cost was what kept them from trying it or something with the mains, I don't remember which.

@Ockham - I didn't think at the time a Modular would fit. However, after seeing a VQ35DE installed in an S12, I have thought about the 5.4L or 4.6L Ford V8s, but again, we'll see.

@jeffball610 - You're not a hater, you're being a realist. The two hardest parts will be making the rear end fit and getting the dash to work with the Megasquirt. Most of the other stuff I can get from pick-and-pulls or I already have them (most of the front suspension, the supercharger, transmission, and engine with stock harness and ecu).

I got the CA20E powered S12 out of cost ($250) and won't be using the struts at all (I'm swapping and have S13 struts). As far as "wide body" style, the only wide body S12 that I am aware of is the GP version sold in Europe. Other than that, I believe that all other S12s were the same body style and shape save for Mark 1s, which had a different grille and different rear end treatment.
Hey Guys
# Hey Guys
Thursday, September 08, 2011 9:42 AM
How do you plan on getting the supercharger connected to the KA24E? You doing a custom plate to the lower intake manifold?
Justin Banner
# Justin Banner
Thursday, September 08, 2011 9:46 AM
Looking at making an intake using oval runners and plates from RossMachineRacing.com.
carmo
# carmo
Thursday, September 08, 2011 10:02 AM
Why not just go with the VG33ER? Supercharged, A/C, lots of torque, Jim Wolf chipped M30 ECU, more torque, factory motor mounts, factory dash, and did I mention plenty of torque. A friend of mine just finished one. It made the front page of Nicoclub.com. Something to think about...
Mike Kojima
# Mike Kojima
Thursday, September 08, 2011 10:03 AM
All I am saying Justin is you better deliver on this or I will make fun of you forever! This is MotoIQ.
Justin Banner
# Justin Banner
Thursday, September 08, 2011 10:11 AM
@carmo - Another guy in Norfolk has done the VG33ER, his came out of the hood. He installed a cowl induction to cover and said it would pass Virginia State Inspection. I kind of like the idea of the supercharger comeing out of the hood for that full Mad Max style, but it comes down to sourcing the engine. I can find 351s, 302s, and KA24Es all day in the area I'm in (Petersburg, VA).

@ Mike Kojima - I know, but you guys already make fun of me! :P lol
carmo
# carmo
Thursday, September 08, 2011 10:40 AM
Yea that maybe the one we did. Red with a black hood? Not really cowl induction tho... Did pass state insp. however. They sourced the motor from some individual in Florida.
CowboyDren
# CowboyDren
Thursday, September 08, 2011 11:05 AM
Justin, I like where you're going with this. Dare to Be Different! A 351 will be harder to fit than a 302 (taller deck, wider overall). Since you're building the dash from scratch, how would you feel about making the tach pseudo-logarithmic? The dial would be spaced something like:

0.1..2...3....4.....5......6.......7........8.........9

The idea is to make the needle more precise as the RPM climbs, because the difference between 1000 and 2000 RPM is mostly irrelevant, but the difference between 6000 and 7000 RPM is very important. Just a thought. :)

You need a proofreader, though. No hate, I just think that poor English mechanics hurt your image.
Der Bruce
# Der Bruce
Thursday, September 08, 2011 11:06 AM
Justin - I find your writing style entertaining as usual. With that said, I worry about this project more about the motor choice than anything. A cast iron V8 is going to throw off the weight distribution and I don't know if the torque you want to bring the rear end around is going to be enough to compensate for the understeer that the heavy front end is going to cause. I'm really fascinated on how a lot of this is going to come together though. Stage 1 is going to be tough enough but I look forward to when/if you pull it off and especially the Stage II V8 craziness that will ensue :)

PS Don't embarrass Mike! "This is Motoiq." :)
Mike Kojima
# Mike Kojima
Thursday, September 08, 2011 11:49 AM
I have built enough Ford Windsor motors to know they suck. Shitty rods, poor block integrity, walking main caps poor head gasket seal. Crappy ports. Ugh.
Mike Kojima
# Mike Kojima
Thursday, September 08, 2011 11:49 AM
But don't let me stop you! You had just better see it through!
Mike Kojima
# Mike Kojima
Thursday, September 08, 2011 11:55 AM
Justin, you look like my redneck neighbor!
Dusty Duster
# Dusty Duster
Thursday, September 08, 2011 12:13 PM
Screw the cast-iron modular. Get an aluminum block 5.0L Coyote. 32 valves, DOHC, variable cam timing, and Ford Racing makes a plug-and-play kit that lets you install the motor in literally anything.
jeffball610
# jeffball610
Thursday, September 08, 2011 12:31 PM
I must have gotten the later V6 mixed up with the later Starions and thought they were wide bodies.
It seems everyone has input on the V8 idea. So here's mine:
Just put in a supercharged Cobra Mod motor. Plenty of torque. Aluminum construction. Plenty of aftermarket support. Not too cost prohibitive. Other than that, I would recommend the LS series if you're stuck on the V8 idea.
Dusty Duster
# Dusty Duster
Thursday, September 08, 2011 12:32 PM
@Mike:

Trick Flow and Dart have done some interesting development on aftermarket Windsor blocks that fix the problems inherent in the original motors.
Justin Banner
# Justin Banner
Thursday, September 08, 2011 12:50 PM
You know, maybe I should clarify that I might NOT go V8 in stage 2. I did mention something about a SHO V6, if I'm not mistaken :D I'm not sure what engine the car will eventually end up with, but it will have more than four cylinders!
Umai Kakudo
# Umai Kakudo
Thursday, September 08, 2011 1:02 PM
Looking forward to a full writeup of the Arduino dash project. I've seen a couple of other Arduino car projects (subi guy making a datalogger) and I thing with a little bit of exposure we could see it getting much more popular in the diy racing world.
Alan_Chiu
# Alan_Chiu
Thursday, September 08, 2011 2:14 PM
Cool project dude! I like older Nissan chassis, and I find this project very interesting. I'd like to watch this car devour the S13's and S14's. >:D
bigdave
# bigdave
Thursday, September 08, 2011 3:58 PM
You are going to make it roadworthy before undergoing such a massive project? I dont understand. I would put it up on stands right away and start tearing shit apart. It wouldnt be roadworthy until it is finished as planned. I just think thats a waste of time, Justin.

Also, i would use a 302 out of a fox body. 351 is a chunk and only belongs in large vehicles. Small car needs physically mall motor.
bigdave
# bigdave
Thursday, September 08, 2011 4:00 PM
physically small motor
Justin Banner
# Justin Banner
Thursday, September 08, 2011 6:22 PM
You know, I thought about just going ahead and tearing it down. I thought it would be nice to have a rolling car to see what changes needed be made and where suspension wise and driving the car would help me figure that out. Then again, I need to install the S13/14 stuff right away.

Better fuel mileage was also a reason why I wanted to have it running, too. Driving the F150 kind of drains the bank account when it gets 15-18 MPG at best.

Also, when it comes to V8s, I talked to my co-worker, Scott Fritchley, who is a multi-time SCCA Runoffs Gold Medalist Builder/Crew Chief in GT Lites, agrees with the 5.0L as well. He feels that smaller ports and I think he said something about faster fuel charge, is what helps make a good engine. It may not make a ton of power in the straight, but getting off the corner it would be a rocket. It would fit better, too! However, again, I don't know if I will go the V8 route in Stage 2. I want to see how it will act in Stage 1 and plan from there.
Mike Kojima
# Mike Kojima
Thursday, September 08, 2011 6:57 PM
The 302 sucks balls even worse. Really small ports and dinky valves. The 351 is pretty compact and is not much bigger. It has a slightly higher deck. The 351 Cleveland is a heavier and more bulky engine.

If you got a later model 302 with the GT40 heads it might be sorta better, the GT40 heads are pretty close to the 351 heads. The 86 heads suck super balls though.

I really hate this engine! Wonderful things like plastic timing gears, tiny and butter soft oil pump drives and press in rocker studs with rail guided rockers that end up sawing the stud in half have pissed me off to on end.

TFS heads are not in the low budget theme. I think the only reason why I ever bothered with these POS engines is that I am stubborn and a Chevy was just too easy.

The V6 SHO engine has a host of other weird problems, read up on them. I would say some cheaper versions of the LS or a SBC would be much less lame.
willscarcast
# willscarcast
Thursday, September 08, 2011 7:07 PM
very cool project. its inspiring to eventually get something going myself. though something is always getting in the way.
bigdave
# bigdave
Thursday, September 08, 2011 7:16 PM
The 302 rocks with aftermarket heads and a whole selection of stuff to replace the bad crap you mentioned Mike. AFR or TFS heads arent out of the budget, and if they are, the whole idea of building a car is a bad idea in the first place lol.

Justin, i would just sit back and enjoy your build. Enjoy it even if it takes several years to collect fund to buy the good parts.
bigdave
# bigdave
Thursday, September 08, 2011 7:18 PM
PS, i believe a 351 is going to be a lot more expensive to build than a 302. Ford engine building isnt cheap.
Mike Kojima
# Mike Kojima
Thursday, September 08, 2011 7:18 PM
Lets see the 302 rocks with an SVO block, some sort of aftermarket heads from a number of people, a different crank, rods, pistons and every part of the whole engine! Hey wait a minute we threw away all of the engine!
Jeff Naeyaert
# Jeff Naeyaert
Thursday, September 08, 2011 7:29 PM
put a rotary in it!
Der Bruce
# Der Bruce
Thursday, September 08, 2011 7:31 PM
I have a lot more experience with the "old" world of motors and if I were to own three Ford motors they would be the 302, 351W or 460. The problem is/was they almost ALWAYS cost more to build compared to GM motors.

Mike - Don't you think these cast iron V8s are going to be WAY to heavy for his balance? I like the idea of an aluminum V8 or I could think of 3 or 4 V6s off the top of my head. None of which happen to be Ford in origin though.
bigdave
# bigdave
Thursday, September 08, 2011 7:41 PM
The drift car i completely rebuilt has a Chevy cast iron block and aluminum heads in it. Weight balance between an aluminum block and iron block is for picky builders.
DaewooOfDeath
# DaewooOfDeath
Thursday, September 08, 2011 7:55 PM
A build that will enrage purists, heavily feature big pimping mega bucks aftermarket parts from the illustrious likes of Pick-n-Pull and Megasquirt, homemade, original Nintendo dash and a general Ford/Nissan abomination in construction?

Love it!

BTW, the 302 is a compact, relatively light (for being all iron) engine. If you want to make crazy power they suck. But if you're shooting for a dead reliable 270/300 hp with lots of torque just pull a GT40 head motor out of a V8 Explorer/Mercury Mountaineer and drop in a mild cam. They even get decent mileage.
DaewooOfDeath
# DaewooOfDeath
Thursday, September 08, 2011 7:57 PM
The mod motors are externally huge and more difficult to modify. The 4valve 4.6 is dimensionally similar to a 460 big block.
SixCylinders
# SixCylinders
Thursday, September 08, 2011 8:00 PM
I'm (like a lot of people) surprised to see this on MotoIQ. Justin, just let me say that I sympathize with you. I am building an uncool car at a slow pace (probably slower than yours actually). Like Jeff I think this is nearing "forum bench racing" but maybe this is what MotoIQ needs seeing as Eric and Mike are busy men. I like that so much information especially on the 302 is being divulged in comments, I never thought the 302 could be that bad, I've seen them running with over 300K miles on them or 600+ naturally aspirated horsepower. Mike, what else do you know that you haven't talked about?

Since everyone seems to be giving their opinion on engines mine is: KA24DE or VG33ER.

I don't know what you have in mind for an alternator but I'm guessing your stocker is around a 60amp? The 1989-1991 (and 1992-1994 GXE) Maximas have a 90amp alternator that is VERY cheap (like $60+core at autozone) and a lot of Z31 300ZX guys retrofit them onto their cars so that's probably an option for you.
Mike Kojima
# Mike Kojima
Thursday, September 08, 2011 8:42 PM
I think one of the cheap truck LS motors would be easy to find in a junkyard and better.
Dave Coleman
# Dave Coleman
Thursday, September 08, 2011 9:53 PM
I think you should put an SR20 in it, because what MotoIQ needs is a SEVENTH SR20 project!
Der Bruce
# Der Bruce
Thursday, September 08, 2011 10:11 PM
Dang you Mike Kojima! The L33 was one of the tricks I was holding up my sleeve for a possible future project :p
DaewooOfDeath
# DaewooOfDeath
Thursday, September 08, 2011 11:46 PM
Bench racing and or the stuff they build every year for the 20XX challenge. Don't believe me?

All of these are way wilder and way lower budget: http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/2011-n600-west-coast-challenger/33452/page1/
Mid Engined Honda CVC-thingy

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/2007-zamboni-odyssey/
A racing Zamboni

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/its-just-metal/
What happens when you put a Mustang floor pan under a Honda CRX that you've converted to a Corvette front suspension and powered with the engine out of a van.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/side-winder/
Datsun 510 with a V8 in the passenger's seat.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/fastiva/
Homemade SHOgun.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/plan-attack/
A Corvette that was converted to roadster specs, pepped up with Mitsubishi Turbos and improved with a snow mobile engine that creates more than a thousand pounds of downforce.

Obviously a lot of these projects fail or end up stillborn, but you can totally pull this S12 off.
sr20freak
# sr20freak
Friday, September 09, 2011 9:58 AM
hahahahaha... OMG(osh) way to stir the pot Justin with your Defiant1! Even the editor in chief is a hater on you and your Ford ideas ! That is awesome... I am so greatful for such entianment here on MotoIQ ! When's Eric going to chime in with his opinions?? I need to hear/ read it! Come on Eric, post up!
sr20freak
# sr20freak
Friday, September 09, 2011 10:04 AM
entertainment.....geeeez laughing so hard at all this posts, I can't spell.... :)
Mike Kojima
# Mike Kojima
Friday, September 09, 2011 3:08 PM
We should call this Project Redneck Rampage!
Justin Banner
# Justin Banner
Friday, September 09, 2011 3:33 PM
:P
Eric Hsu
# Eric Hsu
Saturday, September 10, 2011 9:06 AM
I love showing up haters just as much as the next guy and I love some of my older cars as well. But there's a couple things that no amount of love can over come: physics and technology. There are some seriously badass S13, S14, and S15s out there. Sure, you might smoke some typical forum spec'd and built piles of shits, but my guess is that it'll be tough to beat some of the well built later S-chassis cars with the S12.

Cool ideas though. It'll sure to be a good read. Good luck!
Ryan Georgas
# Ryan Georgas
Sunday, September 11, 2011 11:33 PM
God bless you!! My first car (back in the 90s) was my mom's '86 s12 notchback. That car spend more time sideways than going straight. I've been waiting a decade to see this car get some respect. Preach the good word! I hope you try to keep it period correct. Take the junkyard approach to the limit. You haters can have your GTRs, a hot-rodded S12 is on a different level.
Troy F
# Troy F
Friday, September 16, 2011 11:09 PM
If you want to be different (for the US anyway) find an FJ20 and build an S12 Gazelle clone, then keep the original rear diff and put an lsd in that. And put on some RS-Watanabe wheels like everybody did in Japan 20 years ago. Upgrade the brakes to the Altima 280mm (S13 Silvia/180SX) front from the stock 250mm with a hub swap or even better the B15 Spec-V Brembos. Otherwise put a DE head on the KA and build that engine. You can make 15hp just by swapping the head. For about 1200 you could buy a CA18DET (even though you said you didn't want a turbo)and not have to fab anything and run it with the Megasquirt although they run out of control quickly. With an S12 I would do it up old school but it is your project.

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