12

World Time Attack Challenge 2011 Pro Class Controversies

By Eric Hsu

 

 

The Yokohama World Time Attack Challenge (WTAC) 2011 was a massive success for the promoters, competitors, fans, sponsors, and vendors alike. Ian, Nathan, Kyle, the announcers, and the volunteers who all make up the World Time Attack Challenge and Superlap Australia successfully put on the best damn Time Attack event anywhere in the world to date.

If you missed WTAC 2011, you should make a vacation out of it and attend WTAC 2012. The world’s fastest time attack cars, a huge vendor row, show cars, crazy drift cars without I don’t know how to build an import Chevy LS engines, smoking hot Australian models (wait until you hear them speak with that accent), and a bunch of cool enthusiasts all in one place means you really need to go. Screw the Tokyo Auto Salon unless you’ve got that otaku style yellow fever. Make your 2012 vacation a trip to WTAC 2012. There are plenty of Asian chicks in Sydney anyway so you’ll be fine.

 

 


Here's a pretty cool one minute teaser promo video from Hankook Australia.

 

In Australia, internet access is rare and expensive for visitors. In retrospect I should have purchased a Vodafone prepaid wi-fi stick for $50 which gives you 300MB. Hotels charge up the ass: typically $25 for 24 hours for internet access. The exchange rate was US$1.19 for AU$1.00 so there’s basically a 20% surcharge on everything. This was part of my reason for not posting updates and not keeping up to date with the internet fodder. People kept asking me, “Mate, did you read all the hype on the web about the Cyber protest?” or “Hey man did you read about the shit people were saying about when you guys covered your pits?” Aside from the lack of internet access, the entire last week was just a crazy week for me. I had no time for updates during the event and no energy for updates afterwards. Who had time for updates?  I had a job to do: support the Sierra Sierra (SSE) EVO during the day and explore Australian pubs and restaurants by night. Jeff and Martin did an excellent job handling the updates this year.

 


In case you're out of the loop, Tarzan finished in 1st in the CyberEVO, Dave finished 2nd in the Sierra Sierra EVO (Christine), and Kinoshita finished 3rd in the Garage Revolution RX-7. For WTAC 2011 results, click here

 

I have no idea where to start to be honest, but my goal is to try to clear up some of the drama or "mind games" as some have called them, that happened between the CyberEVO and Sierra Sierra teams. Then there are several other controversial topics that need clearing up as well. Next week, I’ll do some more coverage of the Pro class (unlimited) and some of the cars. The Aussies stepped it up BIG TIME this year and there are definitely some cars that need to be mentioned (and featured in the future).

 

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Comments
Simon
Simonlink
Friday, August 12, 2011 4:43 AM
Great to meet you briefly Eric over the weekend and great to hear how the events UN-folded from the horse's mouth you might say.
I no it may be to soon to say but hope to see you and SSE team again next year at the Creek!

Congratulations to SSE and please all of you keep up the good work

Cheers
Big J
Big Jlink
Friday, August 12, 2011 4:58 AM
The tube frame class might be a good idea...... it'll create a split which will: allow teams to make the choice to split off..... and it'll create a little incentive to back off from the ragged edge in the non-tube class to avoid building a car right out of class......

As any motorsport evolves, this will be the inevitable course of things, right?
Jim
Jimlink
Friday, August 12, 2011 5:50 AM
I was lucky enough to be at the event and was right there when you guys started to put up the banners around your pit area, with people peeping over and others trying to take photos over the banners. I was thinking, What the Fuck, is this China where people think it's their right to get other peoples hard work, ingenuity, creativity, for free. I stayed back out of respect and was wondering why others didn't.

I must say you guys would have won it if your stuff didn't break. Watching in the stands, it seemed SSE had a lot more to give than the 1:29.024 going around the track, were the Cyber Evo was on the edge for their 1:28.851. It was only a 0.173 difference which SSE could have made up.

I really hope to see you guys next year to take the title. Everyone on the race team was really cool and friendly. I wish you guys the best.
willscarcast
willscarcastlink
Friday, August 12, 2011 6:55 AM
great article eric, i wondered if there were any teams that stood out to you as having a ton of potential for next year. im sure with your critical eye you might see a team or two that had all the parts but needed to balance them to make them perform better.
awdaltima
awdaltimalink
Friday, August 12, 2011 7:02 AM
Where can one purchase those headlight intake ports?
rawkus
rawkuslink
Friday, August 12, 2011 7:33 AM
How did the aero changes work?
Fly'n_Z
Fly'n_Zlink
Friday, August 12, 2011 8:04 AM
Sounds to me like if Christine had been running on equivalent tires to those of the CyberEvo that it would have been no contest for SierraSierra to take 1st place and a good chunk off the CyberEvo's time too.

Sucks to hear about the gears getting chucked out of the transmission. Maybe it's time for Cosworth to design an awesome hi-po gearset :)
Kaane
Kaanelink
Friday, August 12, 2011 9:07 AM
So what kind of transmission upgrades are you guys looking into?
Micah McMahan
Micah McMahanlink
Friday, August 12, 2011 10:25 AM
Funny, Raffi at Full Race and I were talking the other day over the joys, headaches and politics/DRAMA of motorsports. More so my groping of guys wanting their 1000hp in a Subie for road course duties.
Sucks about the tire crap from the Cyber Evo team however, I'm glad the event went well and for the most part left a good taste. I'm looking forward to attending next year. I'm another rules Nazi ;)

Thanks for the write up Eric!
Der Bruce
Der Brucelink
Friday, August 12, 2011 10:47 AM
Big J - I'm not sold on the tube chassis split. For some teams, breaking records is their goal and tube chassis guys are going to have the advantage, which typically would force a shift TO the tube chassis to get those records.

Flyin_Z - Word! I was thinking the same thing. Who needs to up the boost to kill mode if you've got the same 'controversial' tire as your competitor?

ERIC - I love your honesty as usual and enjoyed your delicate show of distaste for 'certain' rule breakers this time. It does say a lot that the Cyberevo crew was man enough to apologize. I still think, though, in my heart of hearts that apples to apples (tires to tires) that the SSE is the fastest Evo in the world. Is Sierra Sierra more motivated to come back after this or are they still too close to it to even think that far ahead? It sounds like WTAC has your ticket booked already (Quantas of course) if Sierra Sierra doesn't :)

I think my only bummer is that none of those Australian (Ford and Holden) V8 supercars showed up this year!
Grunt
Gruntlink
Friday, August 12, 2011 11:29 AM
Great review!
Eric Hsu
Eric Hsulink
Friday, August 12, 2011 12:16 PM
Simon: it was good meeting you too. Sorry I couldn't share that Aussie beer with you. We worked pretty late some nights. Next year!

Big J: I think you are right. Either that or the organizers must be firmer on enforcing the rule book so that if a car is built out of class, its also out of the competition.

Jim: No bullshit, with the boost turned up and Emp getting comfortable with the track, I would honestly say there was another second in the car with little effort. There was probably even more in it.

willscarcast: another article coming next week that will discuss some of the other Pro class cars in more detail.

awdaltima: try calling sierra sierra

rawkus: the new floor worked well. we were able to dial out a lot of rear wing and still maintain stability. I think it was a big factor for our front straight speed.

Flyin_Z: i couldn't agree more regarding the tires, but oh well. Next year...

Kaane: Hollinger just released a sequential EVO gearbox. I think Albins, Drenth, and another company also have released sequentials. It hasn't been discussed yet, but it is what I'll be recommending.

Micah: 1000 horse Subies? They need to live at 800 first! Yes, plenty of drama in new forms of motorsports. Its the natural progression of any new sport I think.

Bruce: I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, I KNOW the SSE EVO is the fastest car in the world. Its just that the stars did not align. Last year we got our ass handed to us due to the CyberEVO team being ahead of the curve (and having been in time attack for 8 years before us). This year we had them at point blank. The damn bullet turned out the be a blank however. I think the V8 supercars were officially scared shitless last year. We'll see what happens though. I'm sure we'll be seeing some of them soon.

JDMized
JDMizedlink
Friday, August 12, 2011 12:45 PM
Eric thanks so much for shedding some light about all this drama.
I'm glad you guys squared things off with other teams. It's never a good idea to burn bridges.
BUT !!! Rules are rules, and I get fucking pissed when people bend them.
I am a JDM whore at heart. Love everything Japanese but I can't stand it when the Japanese do this shady things because "they don't understand English very well"....that's BS.
Anyway, thanks again for sharing. Hope you continue working with SSE and support their program !
clintfocus
clintfocuslink
Friday, August 12, 2011 1:40 PM
great write up, thanks for all the insight and info
Nikolas@Redline
Nikolas@Redlinelink
Friday, August 12, 2011 1:43 PM
Great writeup as usual! Thanks Eric! :-)
sr20freak
sr20freaklink
Friday, August 12, 2011 3:03 PM
Awesome write up Eric! Love to hear all the behind the scene storys of the truth instead of a bunch of BS rumors and here say. Thanks Eric!
mx5
mx5link
Friday, August 12, 2011 5:24 PM
@Eric: Lots of the crazy powered Euro rallycross cars use Maktrak transmissions - AFAIK they have a bolt-on for the Evo. And with all the jumps, etc. those cars usually put much more stress on the drivetrain than the track machines. The crazy super & turbo twincharged + nitrous celica which set the fastest time at this year's Goodwood festival hill climb is also running an Evo drivetrain and Maktrak transmission. Here is their web site:
http://maktrak.com/
Eric Hsu
Eric Hsulink
Friday, August 12, 2011 6:21 PM
That's right. A dude at the pub near the track was telling me about the Maktrak boxes. Thanks for the reminder.
brett
brettlink
Friday, August 12, 2011 8:22 PM
Well done E. I'm going next year if you are.
Jeff Naeyaert
Jeff Naeyaertlink
Saturday, August 13, 2011 2:44 AM
the back of the Garage Revolution RX-7... (full feature coming soon)

econobox
econoboxlink
Saturday, August 13, 2011 11:38 AM
^ Holy fack!!
econobox
econoboxlink
Saturday, August 13, 2011 11:43 AM
Btw, thanks for the clarification on the drama Eric.
Your place in motorsports provides a much more accurate view of things.
Eric Hsu
Eric Hsulink
Saturday, August 13, 2011 12:12 PM
brett: Buy your ticket now because i'm going no matter what

jeff: Not sure what your plans are for the write up of the Garage Revolution FD, but I might be interested in the write up. I looked over the car in great detail and had an hour long conversation with Aoki-san about the car and his different programs. It was at the Cargo Bar the night you and Martin decided to show up 30 minutes before the closing time! And of course I am intimately familiar with FDs (or used to be at least).
Micah McMahan
Micah McMahanlink
Saturday, August 13, 2011 1:00 PM
@ Eric, true story on the 800hp level. Making the power isn't the problem but more so getting it to stay together. I have a few things in the works though. Parker is making my block coolant rings and using Wills for combustion chamber. So anxious to see how it takes the flogging.
Michael Sheppard
Michael Sheppardlink
Saturday, August 13, 2011 4:49 PM
Regarding the tire durometer ratings, I've always wondered if it would be safe to use VHT compound on time attack tires to bring down the durometer a few points to have an advantage. Might be worth testing.
John R
John Rlink
Saturday, August 13, 2011 6:47 PM
"It is a compliment aye?" = "I agree, said comment was a compliment"
Ockham
Ockhamlink
Saturday, August 13, 2011 7:31 PM
Here's hoping Christine's up to full kill mode next year. An extra 7 pounds of boost is a hell of a difference when the margin is under a quarter of a second. That said, if Christine's aero is a little behind the Cyber Evo, but you guys still had 40kph on them down the straights, you must have quite a bit of extra power. The gasketless head is interesting. Gas-filled stainless rings, or something even swankier?

The good news about all these controversies and potential cheating is that it proves how competitive WTAC is. Everyone's clawing for an advantage. You should hear some of the protests that come up in ALMS. Everything from BMW mechanics with bare ankles in the pits to Ferraris marking their stop box with illegal tape.
Mark F
Mark Flink
Saturday, August 13, 2011 8:29 PM
You have to have full suit during ALMS race. So yeah, BMW mechanics should not do that.

Ockham, would i see you in the ALMS paddock next time i am there?
NBruno
NBrunolink
Saturday, August 13, 2011 10:10 PM
I've heard stories of Japanese teams doing things like you described-the tires are esp. sketchy. Reminds me of the FXMD's Yokohama slicks that were good for a lap and had to be sent back to Japan once they were used. But I suppose they have their "Unfair Advantage" and you have yours =D

A few questions: I've heard part of the reason why Japanese cars tend to be lighter than their American counterparts is the cages are designed primarily to stiffen the cars (on unibody cars) rather than to protect the drivers. Any truth to this?

In that same vein, why is Christine so much heavier than the Japanese cars? Going over your pre-WTAC post, she's running carbon body panels and is partial tube framed...OK, I can see how the Revolution FD could be lighter, but is she carrying that much more unibody than the Cyber Evo?

(Preface this with the fact that I'm no aerodynamicist) What's the future for aero? It seems to me like a underbody like that could benefit from having more air pumped thru it-maybe an upturn or "step" in the front splitter? I mean it's awesome that you guys fit a FA floor on an Evo, but from my understanding the aero on a formula car (esp the floor, rear diffuser and rear wing) are designed to work as a package. The floor and diffuser are a great starting point but I'm sure you guys could optimise the rear wing setup with some wind tunnel time. For the front, dive planes are band-aids. Throw a Rado style front wing on there! Just some random floating thoughts.

PS Where can I get some Sierra Sierra swag?? Gotta rep the fastest US TA team!


JDMized
JDMizedlink
Sunday, August 14, 2011 2:25 AM
@NBruno:
Eric can correct me on this, but most Japanese tuning shops don't emphasize so much on chassis stiffness. Many Japanese racecars (Time Attack cars) have very minimalistic rollcages (asides from the Revolution FD and the ASM Yokohama S2K).
Obviously with much less tubing the car is a lot lighter (a simple 8 point rollcage can weigh as much as 200lbs).

Christine is relatively heavy because of the complex rollcage (which was designed to stiffen up the chassis and protect Emp in case of a serious accident). Japanese people/ tuning shops don't pay much attention to that.

If you pay close attention to the Cyber EVO rollcage, it does have only a single side bar on the doors (IMO not enough to protect Tarzan from a severe crash).
Also the Cyber EVO does not have any X bars on the main loop, and no gussets on the A-Pillars. Sure the chassis is lighter, but it flexes a lot more that Christine's.
Like Eric stated early, Christine relies on gobs of power with a broad powerband, while the Cyber Evo gets away with a light chassis and good aero package (Voltex has been testing in the wind tunnel at the Mie University for years).

I believe Christine runs wet-carbon body panels, while the Cyber Evo has some dry carbon panels (dry carbon is lighter and stronger than wet carbon).

As far as the wind-tunnel question. Wind tunnels tests are cost-prohibitive. (at least here in the US). Im not sure if SSE has that kind of budget.
Der Bruce
Der Brucelink
Sunday, August 14, 2011 6:45 AM
A couple more things to build on what JDMized said, I read somewhere once that the Japanese like their minimalist cages because it saves on weight and they believe there is some grip to be had with some chassis flex. In fact, many of the cages are built to meet the minimal standards for time attack, not any sort of wheel to wheel racing.

With regard to the aerodynamics comments, there aren't many teams or even many manufacturers with wind tunnel access. I was researching aerodynamic parts like crazy once and found everybody has the ability to do the research and get/find out a ton about the aero on their car. The problem is that not too many people are willing to tape something like 4-inch long pieces of yarn ALL over their car. Maybe teams and/or magazines with unpaid interns might get gutsy and find where air flow rate problems are but most people make aero choices on theory or other peoples 'research'.
Micah McMahan
Micah McMahanlink
Sunday, August 14, 2011 8:19 AM
@Der Bruce, tufting a car and/or doing oil drops are a cheap, quick and easy way to get an idea of what's going on with your aero. You can find turbulent flow areas, find stall angles on spoilers, etc. They are actually techniques that we had used a few times in the windtunnel where I interned. It was usually for done for lower budget teams like Daytona Prototypes where they didn't have CFD and were making parts by best guess.
Kaane
Kaanelink
Sunday, August 14, 2011 8:33 AM
Why not hire someone who can run a CFD simulation of your aero package? No need to get a wind tunnel, simulation is much cheaper.
bill@dentsport
bill@dentsportlink
Sunday, August 14, 2011 12:56 PM
Great writeup Eric. It definitely answered a good amount of questions.

How did the Tibuc work out?

Drenth has a new R4 class sequential in the works but you might check out John McIntosh/Maktrak and their clean sheet sequential. He offers both a uprated bellhousing as well as a transfer case housing (it uses it's own main case). Steve Hill has been using it in D1 ERC competition with good success this season and the torque is most likely similar to the SSE car. John had previously worked at Hewland for 15 years and Xtrac before that.
bill@dentsport
bill@dentsportlink
Sunday, August 14, 2011 1:00 PM
I'd have to think the head sealing is probably pyramid ring with some rubber type moulded o-rings for coolant/oil passages. A few WRC designs have used that in the past and most of the big boost cars in scandanavia have been doing that for a while. Who knows though, Cosworth is usually at the forfront of engine technology so it could be anything.
JDMized
JDMizedlink
Sunday, August 14, 2011 1:09 PM
@Bill, everytime you jump on a dicussion, it's always fascinating to read what you have to say.
Thanks again for sharing what you know. Know that you're doing an outstanding job with Dentsport, (and Alex too :)).
Ockham
Ockhamlink
Sunday, August 14, 2011 6:15 PM
@Mark: I'll be in the Corvette pits next weekend at Road America.
Micah McMahan
Micah McMahanlink
Sunday, August 14, 2011 6:38 PM
Yeah as Bill said, o-ringing decks aren't anything new. RCM offers off the shelf parts for doing it on Subaru's and some of us just do it our own way.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll215/sjobing/Bilde005.jpg
Micah McMahan
Micah McMahanlink
Sunday, August 14, 2011 6:39 PM
let me try that pic again
Andrew Brilliant
Andrew Brilliantlink
Sunday, August 14, 2011 6:55 PM
Thanks for the awesome write up Eric, and setting things straight. Somehow things always seem like a bigger deal on the internet.

Head gaskets are really a production/road car engine thing...
Eric Hsu
Eric Hsulink
Sunday, August 14, 2011 6:59 PM
Micah: The Subaru block has some fundamental issues way beyond just the liners walking around. It will be a long road to get around them. Prodrive tried some Wills rings several years before the end of the WRC days but from what I understand ended up with a different solution. That was all based on the EJ207 however. Good luck with that stuff. Somebody's gotta figure that out to elevate the Subaru platform to world class time attack status.

Michael Sheppard: Emp actually bought some VHT but totally forgot to bring it with him. We figured it was going to be worth a try. Maybe next time.

Ockham: The idea was not just to beat Tarzan's 1:28.85, but to smoke the crap out of it. Obviously that backfired and probably aggravated an already hurt gear I suspect. The cylinder seals are definitely swankier than gas filled stainless rings.

NBruno: JDMized got it exactly. If you read my pre-WTAC post carefully, I was messing around about the part where I said that Christine is tube framed. She actually has a very intact unibody. Too intact for her own good probably.

There's not a single time attack team in the world currently that has the budget for wind tunnel testing.

Unfortunately I don't think there's any SSE swag. So many people were asking, but I'm not sure why they didn't produce any. They could have sold it all at WTAC. Maybe next year.

Bruce: actually cages are not required at al in Japanese time attack cars. And yes, some of the builders believe that the chassis should have a certain amount of flex. That's definitely a strange one.

Kaane: Legit CFD simulation will require real world testing to validate and refine the initial simulation so that it correlates with real world results. I think a proper CFD sim program wouldn't be very cheap unless you had a dude cranking on it full time with access to a tunnel. Remember that any kind of simulation is crap in, crap out especially without any real world validation. You might be able to get a decent idea/rough approximation playing with a basic CFD package however. I think SolidWorks has spoiled the masses. Remember a simulation is not gospel. It is just that: a simulation. I would think the Voltex style big fan room might give you better results than a single stage CFD would.

Bill: I only got to try it in one session due to lack of time. My initial impression is that I suspect the valve isn't big enough for a turbo that size, but it could be that I just needed to tweak some parameters some more. I thought they were already pretty aggressive though. I'll give it another go if we ever test again.

The seals are not pyramid rings. The heads typically aren't reusable with pyramid rings. Unfortunately this is time attack and not GTP! There's not a budget for one time use cylinder heads unfortunately, but I can tell you that pyramid rings probably wouldn't suffice with a 4G63 head. It has other fundamental problems. The casting is shitastic at best.

How is that Drenth company? I've never heard of them, but I did check out a sequential Evo box before assembly when I was in China. The gears weren't REM'd, but they looked like they could benefit from it with all the little pits and dents in them out of the box.
Micah McMahan
Micah McMahanlink
Sunday, August 14, 2011 7:16 PM
hahaha yeah, the EJ definitely has it's issues. I like solving problems, so that might be part of why I like working with them so much. Like I said, getting to the 1000 point is going to be the issue. O-ring and using Wills rings has sufficed thus far.
I gotta say Eric, I'd like to sit down to a beer and shoot the shit with you. Making if things line up with an interview I have coming up in CA ;)
JDMized
JDMizedlink
Monday, August 15, 2011 12:24 AM
Hey Eric, just a thought: since Christine seems not to like too much boost, and since you've gone thru so many headgaskets and gasket-less attempts.....how about a cylinder head from Bullet (Australia)?

We talked about it a while ago. I know the cost is up there, but get a billet 4G63 head (since the casting of the 4G63 head is "shitastic" and analyze it at work, maybe?
http://www.bulletcylinderheads.com.au/billetblocks.php
Eric Hsu
Eric Hsulink
Monday, August 15, 2011 12:24 PM
Micah: sure, shoot me a message when you're in town. If I'm not at the track, traveling, or have some ridiculously scheduled project to complete (which seems to happen more often these days), I'm down for a beer.

JDM: I don't see a billet 4G63 head on their site. It certainly would be worth taking a look at for sure. Let me know if you hear anything.
DaewooOfDeath
DaewooOfDeathlink
Monday, August 15, 2011 10:09 PM
Wow. It sounds like the SSE and Cyber Evos are arriving at very similar times in very dissimilar ways. 40 km/h advantage on the straight? That must mean the Cyber Evo handles way, way better to make that up.

The Japanese chassis/aero guys should team up with the Cosworth engine guys ...
DaewooOfDeath
DaewooOfDeathlink
Monday, August 15, 2011 10:16 PM
dp
Der Bruce
Der Brucelink
Monday, August 15, 2011 10:58 PM
Daewoo - If a car can carry a maximum momentum into a corner before breaking the tires loose, then the lighter car should be able to run at a higher velocity with the same momentum. p=mv. Don't forget that 40km/h is the max faster not sustained for very long at all. I'm pretty sure the CyberEvo doesn't handle "way, way better", even with its "over-the-counter" tires, with such a small margin of victory. "Pretty sure" and yes I just quoted myself!
JDMized
JDMizedlink
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 2:38 AM
@Eric: I will look into that. I'll make some phone calls and see what people say about the billet head.

@DaewooOfDeath: It's very hard to say whether the Cyber Evo handles "way, way better", but what I can tell you is this:
The Unlimited Works/ Cyber Evo has a much wider track than Christine. Christine runs 295 width tires on the stock width body.
The Cyber Evo runs also 295 tires, but....
The Cyber Evo has flares in the rear plus extra additional flares OVER the existing flares. On top of that, the AME Tracer wheels they use have the lowest offset available, they poke out of those flares.
For the front, the Cyber Evo does also have wider fenders, like Christine, PLUS flares on top of the wide fenders. Christine runs wider fenders and that's it.

The Cyber Evo runs on double adjustable Tein Super Racing coilovers; excellent coilovers for the weekend warrior, not so much for a full-blown racecar, but they seem to do the job just fine.
Christine on the other hand rides on 4 way Dynamics coilovers from UK; much sophisticated dampening system.
The Cyber Evo weighs about 1040Kg. (2288 lbs.).
Christine weighs about 1250Kg. (2750 lbs.).
So, it's hard to say what cars handles better.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that many Japanese tuning shop like to keep stock sway bars and play around a lot with spring rate (many times very stiff spring rates) whereas many American tuning shop play around with swaybars AND spring rate, but generally don't end up with very stiff spring rates.
RT
RTlink
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 3:46 AM
I enjoyed reading the writeup and its good to read things from behind the scene. But I would like to clarify one issue about the tyres, the 295 Advans were available to all WTAC competitors, even I received a bulletin about their availablilty and a cut off date to order them and I entered in the clubsprint class which doesnt allow semi-slicks. The CEO of WTAC has also mentioned the tyre issue here http://www.worldtimeattack.com/index.php/lets-clear-up-some-controversy
Micah McMahan
Micah McMahanlink
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 7:47 AM
@Eric, I'll be sure to drop you a line. Just looked up the company, they're in San Carlos but I have some stops that I need to make down your way anyhow. Yippy for small displacement high efficiency design and test work...just if I could get away from this emissions crap lol. Maybe I'll just make this Subie/Evo/Honda stuff full time :)
P.S. I'm pretty sure Bullet doesn't make a billet 4G63 head.
Micah McMahan
Micah McMahanlink
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 7:50 AM
P.P.S. Are we going to get some in car footage from Christine? I can only imagine how fast Emp is popping the shifter down the front straight :D
Micah McMahan
Micah McMahanlink
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 8:13 AM
@JDMsized: If you compare the Cyber Evo time from last year with say the Scorch S15 time from this year (roughly .87 second slower), you'll notice the big difference in the two is corning G's (though cornering speeds are very close), the big difference is how soon the Cyber Evo can accelerate out. In a straight line, the Scorch S15 is faster. So with that being said and noted, I think it's fair make the guess that Christine is either lacking cornering or off APEX acceleration (larglely a suspension/differential factor). Of course this speculation is based upon youtube videos with their shared data...I'm always suspect of data and their sources.

Anyone know if Cyber Evo ran a sequential shifter this year? They were an 'H' box last year.
Eric Hsu
Eric Hsulink
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 12:13 PM
RT: Fair enough. I don't really mind that the 295 Advans were available. What I mind is that the Cyber team brought their own tires off out of their container (I saw them unload their container while I was chatting with Tarzan) and that they measured a 46 on the durometer scale. If you or I went to the Yokohama truck and bought 295's A-050s, your tires would not have measured 46. They would not even have measured 51. They would have measured something more like 65. That's nearly 50% harder than CyberEVO's tires.

D of D, Bruce and JDM: Like JDM said the Cyber Evo weighs about 1040Kg. (2288 lbs.).
Christine weighs about 1250Kg. (2750 lbs.). Coupled with the CyberEVO's ultra wide track for a help in high speed stability plus the fact that it was on sticker tires, there's no doubt the CyberEVO handled "way, way better".

Micah: Sometimes it is funny to follow your passion as a hobby. Trust me on this one....

I'm figuring out some in car footage with Dave right now. He's got it all on his Go Pros.

Cyber is still running an H pattern, but they have a no lift shift strategy to improve shift time and quality.
Micah McMahan
Micah McMahanlink
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 5:46 PM
Yeah, everyone once in while I really wish I had accepted HPD's offer...that last time I was flown out to CA. So is Cosworth looking to pick up any engineers? I'd much rather do design/test engine work in Torrance than in the bay area...or Maryland, like I do now.
willscarcast
willscarcastlink
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:17 PM
micah, where are you in md? im just outside of baltimore.
Micah McMahan
Micah McMahanlink
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 9:11 PM
I'm up in Hagerstown. I'm up here consulting for Volvo Powertrain's Performance and Emissions group. For the most part I sit in a test cell, make tests, crunch data, tweak things as needed and repeat...while I'm bored the other 80% of the time, well you can guess what I do to keep busy.
DaewooOfDeath
DaewooOfDeathlink
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 9:32 PM
@JDMSIZED,

I am aware of the Japanese tuning philosophies. I'm using them right now, in fact, I'm going further than they do with spring to swaybar ratios. Already had several discussions on this matter. Suffice it to say I think that tuning philosophy might have had something to do with the CyberEvo's victory.

That said, I'm sure the Cyber Evo's much better weight, sticker tires and greater width helped as well.

@DerBruce,

As someone who gets destroyed on all straights by everyone every track day, I'm very familiar with being 25 mph slower down on the straights. I'm not familiar with Australian track layouts, but I'd guess that speed advantage combined with all the short straights Christine should have been winning as well, that the CyberEvo was making up at least a second on the corners and braking zones.

And anyway if not handling, where was the CyberEvo making up time? Christine's brakes are not abomination-level bad, are they?
mxpop
mxpoplink
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 11:51 AM
http://photos.motoiq.com/Event-Coverage/World-Time-Attack-Australia/i-cJVJZbq/1/XL/JEF1559-XL.jpg

Clearly a run of the mill Mazda here....
JDMized
JDMizedlink
Thursday, August 18, 2011 2:17 AM
@DaewooOfDeath,
Here are Christine's front brakes:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20733247@N06/4481353866/in/set-72157626713626549

http://www.flickr.com/photos/20733247@N06/4480676889/in/set-72157626713626549

Rear brakes:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20733247@N06/4480666153/in/set-72157626713626549
Eric Hsu
Eric Hsulink
Thursday, August 18, 2011 2:37 AM
450 lbs less weight, stickier tires, and aproximately 2" greater track width can do wonders for entry and mid turn speeds. the cyberevo's ultra responsive engine also allows Tarzan to probably exit turns at a higher velocity too. With 12 turns and 3 of those being hairpins, I think that's where we got beat. This year the CyberEvo also stepped up to Audi R8 brakes too (production monoblocs) which gave it even more stopping power according to Tarzan.

Like I said, the only advantage we had was really power. There quite a few disadvantages the additional power had to overcome. And we were almost there...
Kaane
Kaanelink
Thursday, August 18, 2011 8:04 AM
Any plan for a diet? I can't believe the cage itself is 450lbs heavier. Any other places you guys can shave some weight?
Eric Hsu
Eric Hsulink
Thursday, August 18, 2011 10:28 AM
Nobody said the cage itself was 450lbs heavier. Some differences I can think of right off the bat are in the dry vs. wet carbon parts on the cyberEVO and SSE EVO respectively. The CyberEVO also has a carbon roof where as the SSE EVO has a steel roof. There are for more, thicker, larger diameter tubes in the SSE cage. The SSE turbo and exhaust manifold are heavier. There is far less sheet metal cut out of the SSE car, etc.

There are places to shave weight, but the team decided not to cut weight out of the car in the interest of safety (and expense).
Kaane
Kaanelink
Thursday, August 18, 2011 11:30 AM
Are you guys looking into additional safe weight reduction? or just concentrate on power train development / reliability?
Eric Hsu
Eric Hsulink
Thursday, August 18, 2011 11:42 AM
You're talking to the powertrain guy so I can only really comment on the powertrain. I can say that we are not further developing the engine at the moment. We have plenty of power and power band now.
eeeen
eeeenlink
Thursday, August 18, 2011 5:53 PM
Eric:

Did the "bang bang" ever come into play??

Did you take much pleasure in saying: 280kmph??? ... nope, actually 298+ (lol)

Do any of the asian girls have the Aussi accent?!? I don't even like asian girls much and that sounds reeeeal nice.

I can't wait to see Christine unleashed without incident, in-freaking-sane... SSE owns TA at this point (not even a half a decade in, lol)
mxpop
mxpoplink
Thursday, August 18, 2011 6:05 PM
Are those stock axles EH?
Eric Hsu
Eric Hsulink
Thursday, August 18, 2011 11:23 PM
eeeen: we tried the bang bang one session, but it wasn't working out. Due to more important stuff to sort out we really didn't get a chance to try dialing it in. The next time we test and aren't in such a rush I'll get to test it again.

Yes, it was cool to say that. It surprised the shit out of people. The radar reading on the front straight would never show up for Christine for some reason.

Yes, aussie asian chicks have aussie accents too. The ones born there have full on aussie accents. Quite nice...

Mxpop: no it has some heavy duty GKN rally/rallycross axles. After we snapped an American ""heavy duty" axle back in early 2010 we went straight to the buff stuff.
Jim
Jimlink
Friday, August 19, 2011 5:32 AM
Eric, If SSE was going around the track two thirds as hard as the Cyber Evo you guys would have won. It's your destiny to take down the Cyber Evo. Third time's a charm.
Jim
Jimlink
Friday, August 19, 2011 6:00 AM
I absolutely agree with # NBruno. There were so many people hovering around the SSE pit wanting to connect to the team that they could have easily sold a lot of "swag." I mean people go to an event and want something to remember how cool that day was with something physical, T-Shirt, jacket, button, sticker, key chain, patch, signature, etc. SSE could have made a killing.
eeeen
eeeenlink
Friday, August 19, 2011 11:51 AM
I've been bugging SSE to take my money for a sticker or shirt since 2008, back when they were running 1:45's during shakedown runs at BW13, lol... god I am pumped for SSE to get back to the States and hit BW13 with wick turned up!

GST, FXMD, WR... lots of teams who have been behind closed doors for the most part... (Mike, still waiting for the RLTA shirt I "won" for the GMp Cobalt question I answered, or does my SSE love negate my "win"???) :D
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