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What the Hell?  HKS to Close US Operations!

MotoIQ Staff Report

We were shocked and dismayed to see this notice come across our desks yesterday afternoon.  HKS the iconic Japanese manufacturer of some of the best engineered tuner parts on the market is ceasing US operations.  HKS will start winding down operations and be done here sometime this summer, around August.

This news came as a total shock.  Many HKS employees have been our colleagues and close friends for years, even decades and of course we are concerned about their well being.  MotoIQ is also a fan of and a strong supporter of companies like HKS that represent our true industry, the quality performance and innovation of the industry.

Many factors are involved with this decision.  HKS states the reasons in the official memo shown below as the slow economy in Japan and the US, a global lack of demand for performance parts, an unfavorable exchange rate between the yen and dollar and the devastating earthquake in Japan. 

At MotoIQ we feel that perhaps the most important reason has been left out.   Probably HKS doesn't want to point fingers and complain, it's not Japanese style to do that so we will do it for them.   HKS has been perhaps one of the biggest victims of Chinese companies ripping off their designs and selling reproduced cheap junk copies of their parts, some of it even boldly labeled as genuine HKS products.

The staff of MotoIQ is calling on our readers to take a stand.  Don't support the makers of rip off parts.  Beware of what you are buying, especially what you might buy on line on Ebay and the like.  Don't patronize the rip off companies and the fake JDM companies.  HKS is not the only casualty.  ARC, Apexi, JUN, RSR and Tanabe are all either defunct or greatly diminished in US presence because of the rip off artists.  Many good US companies have been put out of business by them as well.

Of all the leading Japanese tuning companies, only Greddy, ARK, RAYS, Tomei and Toda will be currently openly active and supportive of the US market.  If you continue to patronize companies that rip off, soon you will have no parts other than janky copies of crap for your cars and no parts will be developed for newer cars.  It's hard for us to publicly name names of the rip off artists, last time we attempted to do this, we were threatened by a lawsuit.

A prime example of a market that was eliminated by the Chinese was that of the Sentra SE-R.  At one time it had a thriving aftermarket but the Chinese and Ebayers moved in and drove all the innovating companies either out of business or into other markets.  Few quality parts are now available for the platform and the SE-R scene died. Few new parts have been developed for new Sentras and the only enthusiasts left are mostly people who build janky cars. All interest and innovation has moved on.  The Chinese copycatter killed this platform dead in around three years.

Now it's happening on a larger scale.  To stop this plague don't buy fakes.  Save your money and buy real parts.  First of all, support MotoIQ's advertisers and partners.  MotoIQ has a no fakes policy.  We will not work with producers of fakes nor accept advertising dollars from them.  We have been approached by these charlatans many times and although it would have lined our pockets we turned them down.  Legal action prevents us from naming crappy companies but nothing will prevent us from writing about good ones.

Support companies like  Rays, HKS, Greddy, Tomei, Toda, OS Giken, Kaaz, Tein and American companies like AMS, Full Race, Cobb, Turbonetics, Precision Turbo, and others that although perhaps they don't advertise with us, you can bet we support them and they are fans of our site.  Keep it real, buy real.

HKS is not going out of business, their Japanese division will handle the US market but you can bet service will be slower, parts won't be developed for the US market and the whole company may fail shortly.

Although it is probably too late, lets start a grassroots effort to save HKS USA.  Lets support them with our wallets.  We will try to incorporate HKS products in our project cars and pay for them. If HKS wants it, we will give them free advertising until this crisis is passed.  Please don't comment about capitalism and competitiveness below.  That's not what this rant is about.  Although we don't moderate our comments much we will delete these kinds of posts.  This is about our love for our cars and the love of building them correctly.  This is about passion for our industry.  This is about action.  Let's do something before it's too late.

Comments

JDMized
# JDMized
Friday, April 29, 2011 1:28 AM
No fucking way ??? I can't believe it. I am sad, I really am. HKS has done SO much for this industry. I have no other words to describe this.

Like stated above, soon the Chinese knockoff shit will take over, and then what? Chinese crappy-sleazy companies do ZERO R&D. I foresee a lot of un-happy customers complaining. Those companies won't have anything to copy anymore, then what?

An interesting anecdote: I've been studying Japanese for over 16 years. While in school I've always had lots of Chinese classmates learning Japanese.
They definitely have the advantage of knowing the Kanji,and pick up the language a little quicker than non-asian people; sure enough, anytime there was a hard test or exam, they seemed to always find a easy way out to cheat, learning the bare minimum so that they can pass the damn test.
They didn't care about the whole "the more I learn, the better off I will be once I graduate" philosophy.
Now, my comment might sound racist and inappropriate, though I have no other words to explain it. It seems embedded in their culture, and I might be WAY off and too naive to see the real problem, but the fact that they cheat the system without too much regard to the honor system, it really drives me up the wall.

I really hope to see HKS coming back to the US stronger than ever.
Nick
# Nick
Friday, April 29, 2011 3:46 AM
Wow. This is the titan of our industry dying in front of our eyes. Makes me want to go out and taze every owner of a rice jalopy I see.

If more people were driving enthusiasts and performance enthusiasts rather than hellaflush/rice/owning-a-'fast'-car-to-be-cool enthusiasts this wouldn't happen.

I'll come right out and say I've had first hand poor driving experiences, as well as seen or experienced catastrophic failures from parts made by Megan Racing, D2, Blackworks, Tsudo, and assorted ebay crap. I've seen the bushings pull straight out of Megan Racing rear LCA's and almost cripple a car. I've seen their headers leak new out-of-box, welds on a brand new cat fracture, etc. Not to mention the laundry list of fixes I've performed on ebay-build crap. Delete this comment if you must but it's true.

I'm not trying to single any one company out, just listing some companies I've had bad experiences with. They also all happen to be companies who copy (albeit poorly) well crafted designs, use crappy materials, and make knock-off parts that don't work well at all. The list of said companies could go on much further sadly.

I guess it's easier for the stupid kids of my generation to slap cheap parts on their hellaf*cked import than to 1). Learn how to set up a car properly (and drive it properly) and 2). Learn the necessity of using quality parts and quality construction.

/rant

Turbo Shangbanger
# Turbo Shangbanger
Friday, April 29, 2011 6:08 AM
Then what? Then the industry dies and is returned to the grassroots and is reborn in the next decade. It'll go back underground and be returned to the enthusiasts and the innovators. The huge corporations will be out of business because of the scammers and the scammers will be unwilling/unable to follow the next trend because it won't be profitable.
I've been to the factories of some of the knock-off guys... and these guys drive bone stock commuter cars. Not one enthusiast car in the bunch... and very little practical knowledge. No dynos... and very shitty test rigs that really showed a lack of understanding of the application or stresses involved.
Government grants and an opaque justice system make it easier for them and harder for the foreign companies. Not to mention that a Japanese company is NOT gonna get a fair shake in any court in China.

In the end the companies stop fighting and approach the Chinese factories to produce for them. But after a while, the factory is backdooring them. It's all bad for the industry.
Now, some good parts are made here (China) but it is still very specific brands and facilities that
2_Liter_Turbo
# 2_Liter_Turbo
Friday, April 29, 2011 6:56 AM
This is very sad news :(
Fuergrissa
# Fuergrissa
Friday, April 29, 2011 7:01 AM
Might want to clarify between the real AMS in chicago and the janky knock-off artists @ AMS in Canada lest you unwittingly contribute to the problem. If your not familiar with them ask Mike Smith @ JWT who is probably the person most affected by their R&D (receiving and duplicating) dept.
Tony
# Tony
Friday, April 29, 2011 7:08 AM
The chinese knock-off artists deserve some of the blame, but don't forget the consumers or the internet either.

Traditional, local, community distributors of performance parts have taken a huge hit too. With customers flocking to the internet trying to save $5 at a time. Nowadays, especially with the import scene, everything is HOW CHEAP CAN I GET IT? Undercut and undermine everyone. Consumers seeking out the cheapest prices regardless who they buy it from is part of the problem. These knock-off chinese goods are taking over because 'tuners' want to build everything on an unrealistic budget. These 'enthusiasts' don't understand or appreciate the real costs involved in this game, are not well informed, and will just buy from whoever, whatever, as long the price is right.



Rise
# Rise
Friday, April 29, 2011 7:41 AM
Saying it's only due to the rip-off companies isn't true, as there have always been people ripping off products, and there always will be. There's a market for it, just like there's a market for authentic R&D'd products like HKS. Unfortunately, this market is shrinking in relation to the cheaper alternatives.

While we can blame the rip-off companies all we want, that's not going to produce any results. All we can do is support the genuine companies by buying their products.

And any sort of racism is useless. Every country has their thieves and rip-off companies. Just because one is better at it than the others doesn't make that whole nationality "the enemy". Don't generalize.
Eric Hsu
# Eric Hsu
Friday, April 29, 2011 7:45 AM
I think in the case of HKS, it might also be upper management's lack of knowledge of the "industry". The upper management currently in place at the US office was trying to take HKS to a place it didn't belong. I understand the desire to grow and diversify, but forgetting to grow a company's core business is a serious mistake. Then you can also add to it the "out of sight, out of mind" philosophy that the head office in Japan probably takes toward the US office. The office probably did not allow independent product development, had no real engineering done in the US, and were basically trying to control an office they really didn't care too much about. How do I know this? I don't, but I'm just guess having worked at Apexi and currently at Cosworth. Apexi was the same shit: out of sight, out of mind. Look at Apexi now. It's a shadow of its former self. At Cosworth we get a whole lot more freedom. Look at us now: we are able to support a facility that used to be a world class R&D and engine facility from selling performance products. I know for a fact that if HKS Japan gave a shit and let the US office take the lead with product development for the US (and had the correct management in place), then HKS wouldn't be leaving the country.

Of course then you have the fucking Chinese. The Megans, Mishimotos, OBXes, Canadian AMS', and eBay etc. Fuck them all. None of them certainly helped either.

HKS USA is a big reason why I am even in this industry. I used to go there when I was 16 and bug the shit out of Mike Trunati (sp?). He used to hook me up with all kinds of stuff and helped me out a lot with my Starion. HKS INVENTED this tuning industry and sure had a lot to do with the invention of the US import industry as well.

Anyhow, I hope they come back in the future.
Eric Hsu
# Eric Hsu
Friday, April 29, 2011 7:46 AM
Oh I left out XS Power and SS Autochrome. Fuck those bitches too.
2_Liter_Turbo
# 2_Liter_Turbo
Friday, April 29, 2011 7:54 AM
or Stance, Circuit Sports, Godspeed, Isis, TopSpeed, CXRacing, etc... the list goes on...
jeffball610
# jeffball610
Friday, April 29, 2011 8:21 AM
Although I agree with every comment on cheap knock off parts, there are also those that charge way too much for the real thing. Yes there is a TON of R&D that go into some products, but everyone is trying to make the big bucks right away. People don't realize the mark up on every day products. In many cases, the retail mark up is 200% of the wholesale cost. Yes it takes money to buy in bulk and hold product on the shelves, but some of the costs involved are ridiculous.
I love cheap parts to an extent. Who here has never bought something from Harbor Freight? It's the copied parts that I disagree with. There will always be a market for well engineered parts, and there will always be a market for copied or knock off parts.
America is in trouble in a lot of ways. Why do you think so many companies outsource jobs for cheap labor? Labor in itself does not cost much, but there are other factors that drive up the price including insurance and building operating costs. Don't blame the "Chinese", blame America for it's own decisions.
8695Beaters
# 8695Beaters
Friday, April 29, 2011 8:26 AM
I used to like Mishimoto till I got screwed by them. Every part I (or regrettably recommended my friends to buy) has broken. Never again!!! Luckily nobody popped a motor but we were lucky.

I LOVE HKS. I have a Hi-Power exhaust on my car and I couldn't be happier with it. It's a shame that this is happening, and I'm sure that the knockoffs have caused part of the problem, but remember we are in a recession. And on top of that the tuning industry has just been shrinking in general. Out bubble burst a while ago and the tuning industry has just been plain shrinking for years. And you know what? the same thing happened 40 years ago in the muscle car world. And they've bounced back tenfold. I'd bet the tuner industry will do the same. Once the economy recovers and more of the tuner lovers grow up and get real money we will see parts companies return and a rebound of superbly done cars again. It's just a matter of time.
Eric Hsu
# Eric Hsu
Friday, April 29, 2011 8:48 AM
Jeff: I agree to some extent, but I think you'll also agree that the Chinese and their lack or business morals has a lot more to do with counterfeits and copies than Americans do. We American actually respect patents and copyrights or we get sued. Our government supports patents and copyrights and will uphold them in a court of law. The Chinese don't give a shit be it factory or government.

I just read an article in recently where they talk about American companies bringing manufacturing back to the USA because they were having so many issues in China. I already see that trend in industries where either A) the skillset required to build a product is high or B) materials play a huge roll in the quality of a product. Most Chinese ISO/TS/AS factory certifications are actually purchased rather than earned.

Another factory I forgot to mention that had a huge roll in HKS' downfall was also the exchange rate. The yen has fluctuated as much as 40% in the last 8 years. At the moment, the yen is strong and the dollar is weak which isn't good when you have to transfer dollars to the head office that only accepts yen.
Eric Hsu
# Eric Hsu
Friday, April 29, 2011 8:50 AM
Beaters: BTW our industry isn't going to bounce back for shit if every fucking idiot puts an GM LS engine in every car because they don't want or do not have the intellectual capacity to learn how to build the stock engine correctly.
2_Liter_Turbo
# 2_Liter_Turbo
Friday, April 29, 2011 8:59 AM
^^^ Lol, I don't think Mike will like that last comment :)
Rockwood
# Rockwood
Friday, April 29, 2011 9:10 AM
@ JDMized:

Don't worry, we'll soon be like that here in the US as well, since we're more interested in test scores than we are in kids learning. Teachers basically teach kids to pass tests, not use their brains. My boss here at work doesn't hand me an effing Scantron, take all my books away, and come back in 60 minutes to collect it. He expects me to think on my feet, come up with creative solutions, and get it done. Such is the wonderful world of standardized testing.

As for the demise of HKS, while the Chinese certainly didn't help, part of me wonders how much Polyphony Digital has to do with the demise of companies like HKS. Those of us who enjoy tinkering with cars are getting older. In our 20s, we had the disposable income and lack of responsibility to drop an entire paycheck into our cars, but as most of us enter our 30s and 40s, we just can't do that anymore -- I know I can't. In previous years, there was the new generation of 20-somethings to drive the aftermarket tuning world, but those kids are becoming less and less interested in modifying REAL cars, and more and more interested in text messaging, Facebook, and modifying FAKE cars in a video game.

When I was in High School, you were considered extremely abnormal if you didn't have your driver's license. Now, there is a significant percentage of kids who don't get their license until they're out of high school, some not even until they're out of college.

The other significant downturn, IMO, for companies like HKS are how OEMs are pushing the aftermarket out of the business. Mid-priced cars now come stock running 12s, handle well, and sound cool without being annoying. Sure, you can gain some here and there, but companies like Toyota are making that exceedingly difficult (remember the IS-F intake article?) to do without a lot of R&D. As a result, this is pushing the smaller tuning companies out of it, and making it so only the larger corporations can compete, since the smaller job can't wait 2-4 years before seeing a return. The SE-R tuning world is a perfect example of this. How many larger companies really had a stake in this scene? Some of the companies that built a decent amount of their reputation on SE-Rs moved on and remained dynamic (like JWT), while others didn't (like Hotshot).

Now, HKS is the first of the tuning giants to fall. I expect more in the coming years, no matter what I do. Hard to compete with games that allow you to "make" 1000HP in a matter of minutes, not needing to drive to "see" your friends, and OEMs that give you an excellent car that doesn't need anything out of the box, AND gives you easy financing and a warranty if something explodes.

The times, they are a-changing.
gmdmsolstice
# gmdmsolstice
Friday, April 29, 2011 9:52 AM
@Eric Hsu:
I have one friend that has an ls6 rx7, and another good friend that is in the process of putting a ls1 into a s13. They are not doing ls swaps because they are "fucking idiots", but because they wanted the power, wide power band, and reliability of a ls motor. They have the "intellectual capacity" to see what best suits their needs. That's a fast and reliable track day car.
Todd98SE
# Todd98SE
Friday, April 29, 2011 10:03 AM
Well said Rockwood, well said. I hatz the Facebookz.
M
# M
Friday, April 29, 2011 10:36 AM
Jeff:
The costs over production are R&D costs and they really are that expensive. Well qualified engineers and testing procedures for parts and products are expensive. I get slack from all levels of motorsports from grassroots budgets to pro level teams. Many instances i get push back any time something is more expensive than what the raw materials are to produce any item. I especially get slack on costs of software when it is a valid engineering tool. Real engineers cost real money unfortunately.

Rockwood makes a couple great points with the next generation and also about cars being faster, more efficient, more stylish than ever before.

I am going to start some threads in the discussion forum to further discuss the various topics being raised in the comments section.

Der Bruce
# Der Bruce
Friday, April 29, 2011 10:39 AM
I will absolutely get on board the "ban the knockoffs" bandwagon, but I will say that I've been pretty fortunate thus far. I scrutinize all decisions, many times to my detrement, on parts purchasing and have been pretty lucky so far.

As far as HKS, I recently spoke with a certain TV host who said that he couldn't believe the CEO seemed to speak no English or make any efforts on English because "HKS is a f#@$ing international brand". To Eric's point, it's tough to really know if a certain percentage of the blame is inside HKS' doors. What's really weird is that as I read this, I felt like I was reading XS' eulogy and it's plight with knock off artists.

You thought you were worried about a Southwest airplane ripping open mid flight, how're you gonna feel when Chinese manufactured planes start getting purchased by airline companies? I'll start driving the 15 HRS down to So Cal when that happens!
Pharcydeabc
# Pharcydeabc
Friday, April 29, 2011 10:52 AM
I think that one of the major factors is that there are now a lot of great US companies that they have to compete with, where as before there one of maybe 4 major companies in the industry. I also think that their target market (guys now 30-40) have moved on and they've failed to keep up and create parts that are accessible/appealing to the new generation. I'm sad to see them go.
Der Bruce
# Der Bruce
Friday, April 29, 2011 11:00 AM
By scrutinize I meant I haven't bought knockoffs yet, because I look into the companies making the parts. I have an electronic part that I purchased recently but haven't needed and it may be a knockoff the more I look at it. Let's hope I don't need I then. It's an HID ballast people, not putting HKS out of business.
Tarik Laaraj
# Tarik Laaraj
Friday, April 29, 2011 11:08 AM
Post it up on Facebook guys.We need to make a movement against fake shit. Post on all.the forums you frequent post on Facebook , MySpace, twitter, youtube etc. We gotta send a message to people to support the original R&D!

I've already posted it up multiple times. The 300zx market isn't large and there's already all the usual eBay suspects selling whole dual tbe systems for 500$. A catback from a good company costs 550$ at least! It costs money to.develop good, reliable parts for any car. Support research and development not receiving and duplicating!
ignited
# ignited
Friday, April 29, 2011 11:47 AM
Interesting. I dont buy fake shit but I do buy alternatives. Like the injectors I am considering for my turbocharged KA24DE build right now. HKS 1000cc injectors are $800, 1000cc injectors from Injector Dynamics are $460. That money I saved will go towards another component(s) on the car. Am I cheap? I dont think so, but I do put consideration into how much I am willing to spend depending on the quality of the (parts) options available.

2_Liter_Turbo
# 2_Liter_Turbo
Friday, April 29, 2011 11:50 AM
Did you read the injector article a few articles down? I would do some research before buying injectors that are modified for higher flow...
spdu4ea
# spdu4ea
Friday, April 29, 2011 11:53 AM
I feel for the employees at HKS USA and I hate what knock-offs have done to the industry, but imo HKS has been irrelevant for years... Their business model has always been "new tuner car comes out, rush conservatively engineered, quality parts to market... sell same tired parts for as long as the market will bear despite legitimately innovated parts now being available for the same price or even slightly less... Discontinue old parts unless a minor refresh can rejuvenate sales..."


That worked fine 15 years ago, but new tuner cars aren't coming out that frequently these days and by the time most are out of warranty, there often isn't a single part HKS makes that is truly best for the application -- despite the HK$ premium.
Tarik Laaraj
# Tarik Laaraj
Friday, April 29, 2011 12:13 PM
Ignited get topfeed injectors from them. Injector dynamics is pretty good from what I've seen.
ignited
# ignited
Friday, April 29, 2011 12:21 PM
@2_Liter_Turbo: Yes sir I did read that great article about modified injectors for higher flow rates. Injector Dynamics has manufactured the ID1000 to achieve its flow rate. I would never remove the injectors ability to atomize the fuel properly.

@Tarik: Exactly what I was thinking. And I have always heard good feedback. Many drag racers use that brand with much success.

Sorry to hear those HKS USA employees are out of that job. But surely they are able to do something productive with what they may have learned.
brett
# brett
Friday, April 29, 2011 12:33 PM
Well Said Eric. I got blasted by on Facebook for making some of the points you just made. (you know me, i ran with my tail between my legs) I agree with the knock off issues, we see it all the time, but it's our responsibility to get the word out as to why you don't buy the knock offs over our brand. That's OUR responsibility as a manufacturer. Running lean up top in management, getting back to grass roots, adapting to an ever changing market place, and ultimately not losing sight of your core business. The thing about this blog that is being skirted is I can't completely blame people for buying knock offs. I don't, never have, but the "kids" coming up now are educated by the forums douchebags that have.... well, preaching to the choir there. Not only that, look at the cost of a lot of the quality name branded items, like your stuff and Cosworth and ours here at Full Race. Compared to the crap that passes as "worthy" is more than significant. It borders insane. Some of these guys buy the car, equip it with the shit companies you listed, break it twice, fix it twice and still be into it less than one of your motor packages, or one of our turbo kits (including the purchase of the car!). It's just fucking insane. Now that the dollar is in the toilet it happens more than ever, and I don't see an end it sight. We won't stop knock offs, we won't STOP people from buying them so we really have to stay focused on our core audience, make it as affordable as possible, and of course make it kick everybody else's ass.
Eric Hsu
# Eric Hsu
Friday, April 29, 2011 12:38 PM
gmdmsolstice: My bad, I shouldn't use the term "fucking idiots" across the board although there are those that are fucking idiots and drop in LSes into everything with 4 wheels (or even 2 sometimes). That is a bit too harsh since there are only a few who can build a powerful and reliable rotary. Perhaps the word "incapable" would be accurate without offending. If your buddies don't know how to build and tune a 13B or KA24, then the easy way out is an LS. To no fault of their own, the LS is the easy way out.

I'll admit a KA24 is inferior to the LS, but the 13B is plenty capable of being a reliable at 500hp if you know how to build one. Is it easier with an LS? Yes. Would you choose an LS? Only if you were "incapable" of building a 13B.

Ignited: That is where HKS smoked themselves. They overpriced a lot of items and didn't change their pricing strategies when the rest of the world caught up to them. The yen/dollar exchange rate only exacerbated the issue.

Rockwood: Good point. They are having a similar problem in Japan where there are more people over the age of 60 than under the age of 30. Its so bad that the government is giving subsidies to families who have more children. Today those guys that are under 30 spend more money on cell phones, video games, computers, fashion, etc. Back in 1990 when arcade games ruled and a fast computer was a 386SX25, guys had nothing else to spend their money on so they played with cars. Many of the Japanese tuning manufacturers are shitting in their pants now because there is no next generation of customers.
ignited
# ignited
Friday, April 29, 2011 1:00 PM
Makes sense. Even our company which specializes in Cryopreservation equipment and supplies has to price product accordingly in other countries based off the other offerings in those markets.

Its awesome that Eric Hsu is active on MotoIQ comment discussions. You supply grounding facts and great opinions that can only come from experience. Im sure I speak for most of us readers when I say thank you for being part of their team.
Nikolas@Redline
# Nikolas@Redline
Friday, April 29, 2011 1:52 PM
Eric: "They are having a similar problem in Japan where there are more people over the age of 60 than under the age of 30." Is that true?! That is pretty damn scary...

I knew there were countries in Europe with a declining population, and aging populations.. but I didn't know Japan was suffering from a similar problem.
Der Bruce
# Der Bruce
Friday, April 29, 2011 1:53 PM
Brett: I didn't know you were with Full Race. You guys make artwork out of exhaust manifolds! So bummed not to see a Full Race car at the Phoenix Redline :(

Maybe it's no longer being in school but MOST of the Cosworth or Full Race materials seem pretty reasonable, especially if you're doing the work yourself. For those people buying the knockoffs, as they say, "you get what you pay for and pay for what you get".

Eric: you are clearly a master with the rotary because all I've ever heard since I was a teenager was that big horsepower in rotaries = blown apex seals!
brett
# brett
Friday, April 29, 2011 2:17 PM
Hey Bruce... thanks, we try our best. We opted to sit this year out of the Modified event. Last time we went with a car we had not had a chance to test and it ended the day as a molotov cocktail. We have a new project to hopefully be done for next year.
Tarik Laaraj
# Tarik Laaraj
Friday, April 29, 2011 3:29 PM
Full race manifolds are.gods gift to man.

Not many people know how to care for.a.rotary.

Eric you should type out an article on how to care for them.

The correct oils to add, reliability mods, heat management. Maybe all that could be taken care of with hks parts :)
Andrevas
# Andrevas
Friday, April 29, 2011 3:48 PM
2_Liter_Turbo, I'd like to know how you manage to group Stance in with all those other bullshit Chinatech companies. last I checked Stance was an American company building a quality product.
brett
# brett
Friday, April 29, 2011 3:59 PM
@Tarik. Thanks for the props, like I said.. we do the all we can to bring the best manifold we can to the market. THEN we see how to bring the price down if possible.

sticky667
# sticky667
Friday, April 29, 2011 4:19 PM
Andrevas, obviously you haven't read the suspension section.

page 2

http://www.motoiq.com/forum/aff/15/aft/134/afv/topic/afpgj/2.aspx#8268
Mike Kojima
# Mike Kojima
Friday, April 29, 2011 4:40 PM
Been very less than impressed with Stance myself. They look like fake Motons to me.
Eric Hsu
# Eric Hsu
Friday, April 29, 2011 5:57 PM
ignited: Glad to be here. I'd like to think that I "supply grounding facts and great opinions that can only come from experience" most of the time. But once in a while I spew random opinions (as the example above regarding idiots and LS1's).

Nikolas: Check out this site: Japan Statistics Bureau and scroll down to Figure 2.3. Check out the 2009 column. It's crazy, but its true.

Tarik: Nobody would appreciate that article on here. Everybody's a fucking LS lover here apparently. Only Der Bruce got my back.
OMG Its Weasel
# OMG Its Weasel
Friday, April 29, 2011 6:30 PM
poor guys, the HKS Time Attack Altezza was my poster car during high school. hopefully they still keep smashing records back in japan.
regarding rotaries: i totally would.
spdu4ea
# spdu4ea
Friday, April 29, 2011 6:32 PM
I'd love to see that article Eric. Never really messed with rotaries but I'd love to pick one up when circumstances allow.
Mike Kojima
# Mike Kojima
Friday, April 29, 2011 6:38 PM
Actually we need rotary articles because I have no idea how to build good turbo ones and I would like to learn. The turbo rotary is the only engine I ever failed just trying to tune it. I did build a pretty good mild NA street one once.
Asx
# Asx
Friday, April 29, 2011 6:42 PM
I love rotories, always will, but an ls1 makes way too much sense. For my miata it's a great idea. the t56 takes care of the miata's limp wristed tranny, 2nd order harmonics aren't shaking the (now gone) turbos off the manifolds, the rear housing off the chra, etc, and the fuel economy reaches 30mpg (hearsay, not enough data to confirm. Best of all, the domestic aftermarket engine parts are plentiful and dirty cheap.

2_Liter_Turbo
# 2_Liter_Turbo
Friday, April 29, 2011 7:02 PM
@ brett

I totally agree with ya! BTW, I've been rocking my Full-Race TS GT3071R kit of my SR for a couple years now, and it has never let me down! Great stuff! Just wish I went T4 instead of T3... lol
2_Liter_Turbo
# 2_Liter_Turbo
Friday, April 29, 2011 7:06 PM
Speaking of rotaries, my old school roommate's dad was a big rotary builder (Mark Marshowski) in Southern OR. I learned a lot about rotary engines bs-ing with him, ha ha.
Jim
# Jim
Friday, April 29, 2011 7:43 PM
Mike,
"Legal action prevents us from naming crappy companies but nothing will prevent us from writing about good ones."

No it doesn't. If you come out and accuse this company of knocking off products then you are liable so don't do it that way. Instead, just review the knock off company's own crappy copied products and say in your opinion the reason you think this product sucks ass.

Last time I checked, reviewing a product has no liability because it is only an opinion. There are millions of reviews on youtube for all kinds of crap and I've never heard of any of them having any liability issues.

And you don't have to waste your time doing an in depth review, it can be super short because you know crap right off when you see it. But if you did enough of these super short reviews, it will start to associate the knock off company's name and products as something super crappy, and that should not be bought by anyone.

You can have it as one of your columns so people can easily go to it and instantly see all the things they shouldn't buy, giving them a sense of what companies to avoid. Call it something like, "The No Stars Review."

If you've seen the movie "Inside Job" there is a clear case of how un-liable people can be. Those wall street rating agencies that were giving all those worthless bundled mortgages triple A ratings, testified in front of congress, that because the ratings were only the opinion of the agency, they were not liable for the huge losses that the investors who believed in their ratings, suffered. Has any of those agencies paid out a law suit yet? Not that I've heard of.

Jim
# Jim
Friday, April 29, 2011 7:54 PM
Isn't HKS big enough to have a legal department to go after some of these people in the US?

And of course we can blame the Chinese for coping products and being sneaky. Are they the only factor, no. But they deserve to be called out for their sneaky practices.
Jim
# Jim
Friday, April 29, 2011 7:59 PM
I would love to see the rotary ban lifted at the 24 hours of LeMan.
Jim
# Jim
Friday, April 29, 2011 8:10 PM
In China they really equate cheating, being sneaky, lying, with cleverness and something positive because that person is making money and getting ahead. Whereas in American we see cheating, being sneaky, lying, as something opposite of cleverness and should be looked down upon.
brett
# brett
Friday, April 29, 2011 8:13 PM
2_Liter_Turbo: Thanks. Shoulda gone bigger? Most of our product has a pretty high resale value....just sayin'
Der Bruce
# Der Bruce
Friday, April 29, 2011 9:41 PM
Eric: WORD. I think we could discuss the pros and cons of the LS vs a VQ but I don't see either of us debating which one belongs in a Z! Look at how wet apettites are for building a reliable rotary. Of course like ten of us will only respond, but seriously the rotary is a technological marvel for the internal combustion engine. Amazingly outside the box!
Mike Kojima
# Mike Kojima
Saturday, April 30, 2011 12:04 AM
It doesn't stop them from suing, it just reduces the chances of them winning the lawsuit after we pay hundreds of thousands in legal fees. Our company has endured one costly lawsuit already so we truly understand the costs of defense even if you are reasonably in the right. We are smart enough to try to avoid these sorts of problems. We have learned that in business, anyone can sue for any reason at any time.
Jasonrg77
# Jasonrg77
Saturday, April 30, 2011 12:40 AM
I don't buy Japanese cars for outright speed. That's what Vettes and Mustangs are for. I get Japanese cars for sweet handling, lightweight, cheap, reliable, fun. Throw speed in there and it makes no sense. it is cheaper to get an American car for speed.

How active was HKS in SCCA or NASA? How about the others? Do they offer contingency money for using their parts in sanctioned, formal racing events in the U.S.? How often do they take a platform and make it their's HERE aka Roush, Mallett, Saleen, Calloway, DINAN, et al? Who builds crate engines like Lingenfelter and consistently shows up with packages that you can LEGALLY drive on the street that are better than the OEM?

What I saw was a company that was getting folks to buy stuff that made their cars illegal to drive. If you're skirting the law being cheap about it is no big deal. And if that means knockoffs then so be it. Is this any different from a Gucci purse to a woman?

I hope the business turns it around. Or starts consolidating like Edelbrock and Holley did for the hot rod industry.






x01011000x
# x01011000x
Saturday, April 30, 2011 1:46 AM
I understand that MotoIQ may not for legal reasons want to come out and say “X company is a knock off Y company”, but there has got to be a way to do it. For instance, review some model of Rota wheel. Then have a compare and contrast portion where you test it up against “another popular wheel”. Like the actual Volk/Advan/Enkei wheel.

It’s good to speak out about not buying knock offs, but with so many products out there, so many forum users, and so little time that some people have to research every parts company they may buy from, it is getting really hard to figure out. Seems like some companies both knock off and do original designs, which can make it even more confusing.

I can’t recall a single automotive outlet that has any sort of knowledge base regarding knock off products. Without educating consumers on EXACTLY what is a knock off and what is not, no one will make a dent. Get some third party to host a site in another country outlining exact knock offs and contribute to them anonymously, WikiLeaks style.
M
# M
Saturday, April 30, 2011 3:51 AM
OT

Jim's comment: "And of course we can blame the Chinese for coping products and being sneaky. Are they the only factor, no. But they deserve to be called out for their sneaky practices."

While I am not going to make a blanket stereotype, it is common in the culture for hackers to be considered rock stars and for government agencies to encourage and facilitate the illegal activity.

/OT
2_Liter_Turbo
# 2_Liter_Turbo
Saturday, April 30, 2011 6:25 AM
@ brett

Very true, they do have a higher resale. I'm getting close finishing my new motor build (ran the Full-Race kit on a stock motor for 14k miles, lol, it got me into the 11s), so I'll finally be able to see the full potential of my current kit. If I still want more, I'll look into selling it for an upgrade!
czubaka
# czubaka
Saturday, April 30, 2011 8:08 AM
I was just watching the EFR video on Full Race's site and it got me to thinking (there I go again, working without tools!). When I had my evo 8, then 9mr and when I get a x, I always looked at HKS's stuff first. However, nothing they make seemed to bring anything new to the table. Especially at a price comparable to high-quality US made stuff (Full Race, AMS, etc) and very few items at the level of Cosworth. Just a basic for-example: their catbacks. Every single one of them choked down to stock exaust size at the cat. When looking at the performance/$$$ ratio, it just didn't make sense. The current exchange rate (now that I'm in Japan) doesn't help at all. In fact, HKS parts are more expensive here!

Also, with the EFR example, although the technology is primarily directed towards the aftermarket, it's packaging makes a good case for OEM adaptation. That leads to a true future for the product. Cosworth has done much the same for auto manufacturers over their life. Yes, we're talking about much larger companies, but someone at the level of HKS needs a link to the OEMs.

It's sad to see HKS go, but I'm disappointed to say I won't miss them much. Oh, and cheap knock-offs suck.

So, Brett...when's the Evo X EFR kit coming out? ;)
tyndago
# tyndago
Saturday, April 30, 2011 8:32 AM
HKS isn't going away, just HKS USA. It was ran as a separate company, and I think the yen to dollar squeeze, just squeezed them too much.

Its 81 yen to the dollar right now. The rate has varied from 100 to about 120 yen to the dollar. I used to always use about 100 yen to a dollar as a base for price. 20%. The last 4 years the dollar has been getting weaker, and the costs go up with the rising costs of fuel.

Adding to that you have the Chinese companies, the eBay guys prices that just leave a company like HKS with no room to move. Even if they were able to lower the price 20%, all that is now taken up by the yen/$ exchange.

There are still people out there that want to modify cars, but convincing them to get the "good" parts, when the cheap parts are so cheap makes it hard. Its their job as a consumer to look for the best price.

If they know no better, and look only at price, can we really blame them for buying the crap part?



Mike Kojima
# Mike Kojima
Saturday, April 30, 2011 10:12 AM
binary dude,

Its is not so simple as just doing it. We would like to but we are a business and we prefer not to risk legal engagement at this point. We have the resources and capability to do so but it is our business decision to spend money on things like a wide variety of project cars, good event coverage and getting a wider array of good writers in here instead of legal fees.

We have been sued once and been threatened with suits twice before. Even a threat is expensive. You get a threat, you have to get your lawyer to respond at $400 an hour which you get billed $800 to $1200 for. This is fairly simple. A full blown lawsuit costs from 30k to hundreds of thousands to defend against minimally. It all depends how hard the other side wants to play. Its all a waste actualy and usualy the only side that wins are the lawyers.

If you own a business where you have exposure then you would understand. In the USA we have great freedom. it also means you can get sued at any time by any one for any reason. All it takes is money or a broke ass lawyer that is willing to work on a contingency.

What I would be willing to do is if people discover bogus parts, send them to us and we will take them apart and show the differences when compared to the real thing.
Jim
# Jim
Saturday, April 30, 2011 11:11 AM
x01011000x,
Thanks for letting me know that I'm not the only one that feels this way. You make a really good point on that there is no place for consumers to go on line to know what to avoid in the tuning industry. Yes, do compare and contrast too. Great idea!

Yes Mike, frivolous law suits are done all the time. But since the time of the McDonald's hot coffee law suit, frivolous law suits are not as easy to win in court because there was a lot of negative feedback over that. But if a reputable site like yours cannot defend against frivolous law suits from unreputable companies, then what does that say about the future for America. To me it means that it's the Chinese that are dictating what is said in America with their money and not us, regardless of how clearly the Constitution protects those rights. Don't forget, you can also counter sue them for money and your legal costs.

If a restaurant sued a food critic for giving their restaurant a bad review, will they win in court? Can people be sued for giving a negative reviews on Yelp? Yes, they can sue but you don't need a lawyer to win that one? Nobody gets or needs permission from the manufacturer to do a review. There are people criticizing all the time on the evening news. We still have freedom of speech and opinion in America. If you don't exercise your rights you will lose them.

Did you really pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees over a deformation case?

Mark,
What does OT mean? Is that a Scientology term? Sorry, I'm not to savvy to internet lingo. Which culture are you talking about? There are a lot of different cultures posting here. I really don't understand what your statement has to do with mine.
mike156
# mike156
Saturday, April 30, 2011 12:40 PM
I hate the man but Trump said it best, 25% tax on anything from China.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbdi7YG7unE

Generalizing they are basically evil people is shitty, but his thoughts on foreign goods I'm 100% behind. I'd never vote for him though...
saru-kun
# saru-kun
Saturday, April 30, 2011 1:00 PM
Hello Eric,

Please do go ahead with your 'Guide to the rotary engine' when you have time to concentrate on it. Even if there're not many rotary engine fans around these days, the minority will still want opinions and information from you who have built successful, reliable and powerful rotaries in the past.

Plus, a large number of stickied information and websites regarding technicalities of REngine would need freshening up to. Your guide would fit in nicely >2010.

Cheers
brett
# brett
Saturday, April 30, 2011 1:59 PM
czubaka... We are finishing the EvoX up right now, should be available for sale first part of June.
Eric Hsu
# Eric Hsu
Saturday, April 30, 2011 2:24 PM
rotary guide wanting moto IQ readers: The rotary was part of my past life. Unless it enters my life again via personal project or a new turbo rotary vehicle from from Mazda, it is unlikely that I will ever have anything to do with a rotary again including writing a guide. Back in 2008 I cut apart and threw away my last rotary vehicle. My days are far too busy and are spent on current engines. I barely have enough time to write for Moto IQ as it is. Building and maintaining a reliable high powered rotary has never been rocket science nor do you have to be a wizard and cast a spell. It can all be summed up in one phrase: attention to detail. And I do mean every single detail you can imagine. "Good enough" isn't going to cut it with a rotary.

Jim: Yes, Mike spent a shitload of money protecting himself from a piece of shit that tried to rob him legally. I told Mike to hire a sniper, but he wouldn't listen.

Mike156: I agree with that 25% tax, but it would put a huge dent in our cost of everyday household items as well. The fact is the US is reliant on China also. They are the ones willing to fuck up their air and rivers via pollution, cut the shit out of their forests, and keep their future generations of people uneducated for the sake of money. Alot of household items produced in China for cheap can no longer be produced cost effectively in America due to modern EPA/ARB laws.
M
# M
Saturday, April 30, 2011 2:52 PM
Jim.

OT means off topic. my post was about chinese culture and not hks closing, so i was prefacing it.

In Chinese culture, hackers are celebrated like rock stars and government supports hacking of foreign property. Again, not trying to do a blanket statement about ALL chinese, just some of the mentality.
mike156
# mike156
Saturday, April 30, 2011 3:44 PM
No argument here. I think we as Americans have been living a VERY unsustainable life style for a long time and it is time to change. If you can't produce a given product for a reasonable price without having a large negative impact on the environment, maybe we should go without it. I agree though, cold turkey isn't the answer, but doing what we have been doing since the dawn of the industrial age isn't the answer either.

You may be different, but the AVERAGE American is nothing but a consumer. We buy, we use, we dispose, we buy, we use, WE DISPOSE...on and on it goes but it has to stop some time as we are on limited resources. Be it by gradual choice and slow changes to life style or world wide war over limited resources, we as humans WILL HAVE TO change. The scary part though, we are only 300 million in number. China, India, and other developing countries numbering in the billions are starting to get a taste of consumerism. The earth can't even support the 300 million of us now with this mentality, just wait until consumerism hits the other 6 billion people on earth. WE ARE FUCKED.

But until then, I'll keep modding out gas guzzling imports. You gotta have something to live for.
mike156
# mike156
Saturday, April 30, 2011 3:48 PM
Sorry, the point of all that above is that IMO, facing a 25% increase for consumer goods to avoid buying Chinese is fine in my book. It will take some getting use to, but it would be greatly beneficial to the USA in the long run. No doubt it would hurt upfront though. Unfortunately, we are reaching a point where we are going to have to pay for the 200 years of continuous industrial growth...
Sucks that it is our generation sitting next to the head of the table realizing daddy doesn't have his check book and we are next inline.
Mike Kojima
# Mike Kojima
Saturday, April 30, 2011 9:50 PM
Binary dude.

Counter suits cost lots of money as well. Its kinda hard to explain how unsimple it is until you are actually in one. It's not so easy as going "wow he sued me, I'll counter sue and it will be ok". Anytime you sue, just initiating it costs 30k or even more. Yes, 30K, cold hard cash up front, no credit cards second mortgages or loans. Not to many people are willing to do that.

We can if we have to but it is a total waste of resources.

Its lame, its whats good and bad about this country. Life is not fair, the sooner people realize it and deal with it, the better you can do!
racerboy1234
# racerboy1234
Saturday, April 30, 2011 9:51 PM
As a senior manager of one of the surviving companies in our industry, let me share a few thoughts and observations.

Based on HKS's financials, it appears that they have suffered significant declines in revenue over the past several years (all your guesses as to 'why' are probably correct), but I believe their biggest problem is operating inefficiency. On revenues of approx $68MM USD, they report a net loss of of approx $209K USD last year. And in the past 6 months they are already showing greater losses than last year. I do not believe the problem is with margins because HKS has long outsourced manufacturing from other Asian countries and also because a large portion of their sales is rooted in electronics which naturally have incredibly high profit margins.

That being said, I do believe that counterfeit and copy cat products have affected every brand name companies' sales to greater or lesser degrees. It is highly frustrating. This phenomenon is fueled by customers that have become both dumber and cheaper; this is the bigger problem. Frustrated by the cheap/opportunistic mentality of the customers that seemingly make up the majority of our market, our company is actively exploring opportunities that will allow us to 'get out' of this industry. What is the point of allocating resources for the development of new products when customers are unwilling to pay a price that allows us to recoup our development costs, and would rather support copied products?
x01011000x
# x01011000x
Sunday, May 01, 2011 1:17 AM
Hey Mike,

Not sure about the counter suit thing, I think someone else posted the comment about that.

I do understand how hard it must be to see these cheap parts in the industry, but not really be able to say anything about it. As you brought up, just a threat of a lawsuit costs time and money, even if you know in the end they would not win. I would rather have you writing articles then talking to laywers :)

I like to spend my money with companies who design their own products. To illustrate how difficult it can be though, here are two instances in the past couple years I ran into.

Subaru equal length headers (not macho Full-Race quality), are a dime a dozen. Who originally designed theirs? Tomei, GTSpec, MadDad, Gruppe-S? They all look the same on the Internet. All have an SSI badge on their flange (maybe not Tomei, can't recall). All the forum noobs say they are all the same. Reputable tuners/mechs say some are the same. My money would be on Tomei, but I don't really know for sure.

Seibon, don't they knock off JDM designs from companies like Top Secret? Volk is one of the good guys. People like Rota knock them off. Wait, why is there a Volk wheel (reputable company) with Seibon (knock off company) edition stuff on it? Why would legit sponsor non legit?

I guess it can be frustrating to hear from industry vets, such as the people at MotoIQ, saying not to buy knock offs from these cheap companies, so we can keep our legit industry thriving, when at the same time, the industry vets at MotoIQ can't clearly point this stuff out (due to legal reasons).

I guess in short, please also understand where us consumers are coming from and how hard it can be for us.
initial stfu
# initial stfu
Sunday, May 01, 2011 2:50 AM
this became racist. when all the Japanese company bought their parts from a Taiwan supplier and sell it under their name. all of sudden those parts became JDM, and they sell it with their JDM TAX. all their parts are nothing but made in taiwan or China any way! when their company makes profit out of those CHINA or Taiwan parts, did MOTOIQ make a post to thank them? when the JDM Company is closing it's those CHINA Company ruining the market?

and tomei 80% of their parts are made in Taiwan, same with Tein (only their $2000 coilovers are made in Japan) Apexi? Greddy? DMAX? Origin? Top Secret? HKS? Buddy Club? Skunk2? WHAT IS MADE IN JAPAN? (I dont think any company can step out and say their stuffs are made in Japan ONLY)

the only difference is Japanese companies has great quality control than MEGAN, OBX, those "China Company" because they selling it at a higher profit margin. for ppl that wants cheap parts. you'll get what you pay for.

the rest of the world has been caught up with Japan's technology, they're no longer has the upper advantage. with this bad economy and high japanese currency, all the japanese companies are suffering. hope this won't last long, or we'll see more Japanese company closing or leaving USA.

and some one mention about 25% import tax for foreign countries? are you freaking out of your mind? imagine you need to pay $10 for your kid's happy meal because the toy is made in USA? can you afford to bring those jobs back to manufacture in the USA?

I rather they lower the fucking gas price! (2011 ExxonMobil reports first-quarter profits of $10.7 billion – 69 percent above the company’s first quarter of 2010)
M
# M
Sunday, May 01, 2011 3:55 AM
"and some one mention about 25% import tax for foreign countries? are you freaking out of your mind? imagine you need to pay $10 for your kid's happy meal because the toy is made in USA? can you afford to bring those jobs back to manufacture in the USA? "

Can we afford NOT to pay a little more? Lead Paint, money going overseas. I used to think cheaper was better, but i see where the money is going. Instead of a neighbor down the street making money that allows him to go and buy my products, he is out of a job or has less jobs to choose from. It comes FULL circle. VERY FULL CIRCLE.

I have now actively starting making decisions based upon the company and the practices they take. This site goes beyond the normal car parts. This microeconomics of car parts is a great example of the full scale that everyone in this thread is ranting about.

I am not a flag carrying 'Merican, but i say we support companies that support jobs and profits in our own country OR at least do not do it simply out of greed. I will still buy a Toyota or foreign made part, but that is not the point. I believe we as a country have very little pride in our country overall compared to the pride other countries feel for theirs.

There was a tv show a few weeks ago that outlined a house build that consisted of ONLY US made components. There were some they could not find.

They also touched on the fact that the majority of our american flags are made in china...pay another country for our flag. Brilliant!
Jim
# Jim
Sunday, May 01, 2011 8:34 AM
Mark, That makes things clear and I agree with you. Good point.

Mike, I guess in my work I go to court a lot. My dad was a lawyer and I have the resources of a lot of his colleagues including former judges, (I still have to pay them of course) so I am desensitized to what a hassle it is to go to court. To me it's like, okay, let's to court again. But I've realized for a lot of the simpler cases, our office can handle them on or own. I've never been in your situation because I'm in a different field. But I'm just saying that court always seems scary, but for frivolous law suits, a lawyer is not always necessary. Sometimes all you need is some friends in the legal field to give you some advice on the side. Yet, I've never been in your situation so I'm not telling you what you should do, just letting you know my experiences. I have a relative in LA who's a lawyer for a firm and from what I can find, a good veteran lawyer will cost around $475 an hour.

I absolutely don't agree with the argument of, we need to depend on cheap Mexican labor or cheap Chinese products. Fuck that shit! People act like America never existed without it. Bullshit! What the hell was America before the cheap labor and cheap products, was it a shit hole?
Eric Hsu
# Eric Hsu
Sunday, May 01, 2011 12:53 PM
Racerboy: I still believe HKS' downfall could have had a lot to do with margins. Of course I still think US upper management was making decisions based way out in right field and completely forgetting about their core business, but larger companies can operate as separate "business units" most of the time in today's companies that are run by accountants and CPAs. That being said, HKS manufacturing might sell HKS Ltd an exhaust system with a built in profit margin. Then HKS Ltd sell that same exhaust to HKS USA with a built in profit margin again. In the end HKS USA is hit with double profit margins PLUS the poor exchange rate which they have to pass on to the consumer. Blame the CPAs for this method of running a company with separate business units. While it does pinpoint inefficiencies within a large company, it doesn't take into account how one section's inefficiencies (e.g. janitorial expenses) can greatly benefit another's profit margins (e.g. clean image throughout company property). This is just speculation of course, but I suspect with HKS being a publicly traded company, this kind of dumb ass accountants running the business type shit goes on.

For the record HKS' outsourcing is mostly in house now since HKS opened their own a factory in Thailand about five years ago. While yes, some of their stuff is manufactured in Thailand, it is a HKS owned factory and benefits from Japanese anal QC.

initial stfu: nobody is being racist. When I make a statement like "the Chinese have unscrupulous business practices and do not respect intellectual property, patents, or copyrights." I am speaking about most Chinese factories in general, not all. Stereotypes exist for a reason: because they are usually true. You'd be able to find more proof of my statement than otherwise.

Both need to happen: lowering of gasoline prices and we need to start paying a premium for stuff to be made in the USA (or at least in the Americas). We need to stop feeding China and helping them to become a superpower. Imagine if China ran the world? This world would be fucked with the corruption that goes on there.
macidcrook
# macidcrook
Sunday, May 01, 2011 8:20 PM
sorry if some one else said this, i read most of the post but skimmed through some.

the chinese copy isnt an american issue, theres plenty of chinese copys in japan.(and other countrys) look through any jdm option magazine theres hundreds of companys that sell knock off parts in japan. its been that way for a long time. i realize that the big jdm companys are hurting from it but i feel its more of a smart business on hks' part to cut back in a low time. whats wrong with just having a master distributor? look at mackin. i doubt rays is every planning on having a rays USA.

there is deffinitily a quality difference between the knock offs and original but when you can save 80% its hard to justify it. ypou can buy 2 or even 3 knock offs for the price of an og one. ive always bought hks, apex, blitz ect... but ive always had to buy them used because i could never afford to buy it new.

also everyone is using american v8 parts so wheres hks' market now? they only make a handfull of parts for california cars and alot of the good parts for older cars are discontinued. i think its to early to really say why or whats making hks do this. i also think they are telling the truth in there letter.
Wrecked
# Wrecked
Monday, May 02, 2011 9:01 AM
This is not the end of HKS yet but obviously it a sign that they are in serious trouble.

Someone else said it, and I agree - while Chinese knock offs are a big part of the problem, I think HKS themselves are to blame. In general they just aren't producing exciting or innovative products for the popular platforms. In addition there are a lot of quality competitors around now than there were 10 years ago.

If I want quality intakes, turbo kits, exhausts and cams for an Evo 8 for example, there are numerous parts available that will perform just as well or better and cost less.

From my experience, comparing the JDM parts to good USA parts, the JDM stuff tends to come in nicer packaging, require minimal to no cutting, grinding etc and have every last gasket, screw and clamp that is required and are usually a little bit closer to OEM quality and fitment. But I don't think that is important to most people. They will take the money savings, reuse their old gaskets and hoses and get better performance at the end of it.

Rockwood
# Rockwood
Monday, May 02, 2011 9:02 AM
@ initial stfu:

"I rather they lower the fucking gas price! (2011 ExxonMobil reports first-quarter profits of $10.7 billion – 69 percent above the company’s first quarter of 2010)"

$10.7 billion, yes, but on $114 billion in revenue. A 10% profit margin isn't even close to obscene. Actually, it's a bit low.

As for high fuel prices, that's more a function of the declining value of the dollar, as well as increased global demand, than it is from some "greedy oil tycoon" trying to assrape your hard-earned money. You can partially thank the poor trade deficit we have for that, as well as some other fiscal issues (see http://www.usdebtclock.org/).
Mitch@AMS
# Mitch@AMS
Monday, May 02, 2011 6:05 PM
Solid discussion guys. I think you guys hit the subject well.

I am sorry to see HKS go. They were my favorite company when I got into this scene and I loved everything they did.

I see the copies made by these companies and it kills me. We put a lot of money into R&D and engineering and testing all for someone to knock it off and then people ask why our parts are more expensive. You pay for what you get.

Sad to see them go.

Mitch
Jim
# Jim
Monday, May 02, 2011 9:47 PM
OPEC gets together and sets oil production. If that's not price fixing, then I don't know what is.
Andrevas
# Andrevas
Monday, May 02, 2011 11:16 PM
right now, OPEC isn't doing any supply control. the price isn't set by oil companies or OPEC, it's set by speculators trading oil on the market. right now they are all afraid over all the bullshit in Libya and the Middle East. there is no supply problem right now. there could be an unlimited supply over there right now and traders still wouldn't care since they are scared about it going to hell over there.
Jim
# Jim
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:07 AM
If OPEC can control the supply they can control the price. The speculators are all trying to play catch up and do not tell anyone how much to produce. There's a great movie called the Informant. It's based on the true story of how ADM and their global competitors were trying to secretly fix the price of lysine. I don't believe for a second that they still don't control supply. They might publicly say they are not, but I'm sure they are still doing it through a nod and a wink. There's just too much money to be made. When I think of big corporations, trustworthy and honest are not the first things that come to mind.
Andrevas
# Andrevas
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:16 AM
I never said that they never control supply, they just aren't limiting supply right now. there hasn't been a single report talking about supply problems leading the media, it's all shit in the Middle East making people freak out. and to cover my ass, nor did I say it was a good thing that investors drive up the price speculating on oil based on their fear and their greed.

basically, we're fucked no matter what.
brian2799
# brian2799
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:21 AM
Let's DO blame the Chinese. Their business ethics are terrible. Besides all the piracy of name brands, lets not forget the melamine contamination in pet food, the 100+ dead in Panama because they used a toxic chemical instead of the proper one that got placed into cough syrup there, the dozens of babies who died because their formula milk was contaminated, etc. Chinese companies screw foreigners and their own people with their crappy products, usually with the connivance of the Chinese officials. I don't want to support a corrupt authoritarian oligarchy with designs on intimidating most of East Asia.
Rockwood
# Rockwood
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:59 AM
OPEC is not fixing prices, since they are not the only source of oil. If they decide to collude and reduce supply, then the price of oil goes up, and other suppliers sell more oil to take advantage of the margins, causing pricing to eventually fall, economics 101. Speculators may have short-term effects on fuel price, but aren't the sole cause of current fuel prices.

Fuel is in more demand now than ever. Easy to find oil is decreasing in production, and sweet crude supplies are becoming shorter. Additionally, new fuel requirements (and way too many different state fuel requirements) are increasing refining costs. This makes oil more expensive.

Another cause for high fuel costs? Our weak dollar. Oil is an international commodity, and we don't produce 100% of our fuel domestically. As a result, we're competing with other countries to buy oil.

Don't believe me? Take a look at this chart:

http://gasbuddy.com/gb_retail_price_chart.aspx

Then compare it to nearly any other currency from a non-command economy like the Euro, or the Canadian Dollar (which is worth MORE than the US dollar). Oddly enough, when your currency has less value, you get less product in exchange for it.

If we stop printing money, and reign in consumer debt, we decrease fuel costs, as well as a lot of other costs.

And yes, China is a bad place, but our country's own desire (and the policies that allowed it) to export as many jobs as possible gave China its current power. 40 years ago, no one gave a crap about that country.
Jim
# Jim
Tuesday, May 03, 2011 6:29 PM
OPEC is not the only source of oil, but they are the largest by far with the largest oil reserve in the world. Look at their member countries. Algeria, Angola, Ecuador, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Libya, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, and Venezuela. They can easily throw their weight around. I look more at the history of corporation and it's not a pretty one so I don't trust them for a second when they release a press release saying they are not controlling supply.

I'm OPEC. I collude with my buddy nations to control supply. I know what will happen so by investing I also make money on the way up and on the way down on the global stock market. Corporate economics 101.

It wasn't our "countries desire" to lose his or her job due to their employer moving overseas. I never heard any regular folk say, I'm glad all the manufacturing is going overseas. It was the corporations desire to move to make a higher profit.

Oil is not a rare commodity. They find it everywhere. Oil lobbyists are getting governments to stop new drilling. They reduce output on purpose in order to get a premium on there product, just like the diamond market.

I absolutely agree we have to stop printing money for now.
Rockwood
# Rockwood
Wednesday, May 04, 2011 8:57 AM
True, OPEC does throw its weight around to effect oil prices. Got off on a tangent a little there. My response was mainly about blaming oil corporations for fuel prices and "obscene profits." You are correct. However, your second point about oil being found everywhere also shows that if OPEC throws its weight around TOO much, it won't help them any, as harder to extract oil starts making fiscal sense.

It was not John Smith's or Jane Doe's desire to lose his or her job to their employer moving overseas, but do you think that John Smith thought about that when he voted with his dollars and went to Wal-Mart? Additionally, corporations like Wal-Mart buy the campaigns and corporations like Wal-Mart buy the lobbyists, therefore, corporations have a large say on laws that allow them to do things like ship jobs overseas.
Jim
# Jim
Wednesday, May 04, 2011 11:12 PM
Yes, people should not help in their own demise by shopping at Wal-Mart and we should boycott Chinese products. People have to become better shoppers and I know it's hard. In 2007 I was shopping for my friends yet to be born kid at FAO Schwarz on NYC's fifth ave. It's a huge posh multi floor toy store and in the entire store, I could only find a handful of items NOT made in China. I looked for a good 2 hours because my friend made it a point that he didn't want his kid chewing on some toxic Chinese product. It was really a frightening experience. Like the US had been taken over or something.

I don't know how much the government can control companies leaving but they sure can raise tariffs if they wanted to, though China threatens to call in it's loans to the US if they do. What a mess.

Rockwood
# Rockwood
Thursday, May 05, 2011 8:34 AM
Tell China to come and get it then.

I really think that, while painful in the short term, the US needs to do what everyone has done to us since WWI: not bother to pay back loans from other countries.

If they want the money, come get it. I'd love to see a day where we increase oil production here while simultaneously reducing consumption, then just cut our ties with the world: no foreign bases, no more world police, just worry about us and the world be damned. See how long before everyone begs us to come back... :)
econobox
# econobox
Thursday, May 05, 2011 7:39 PM
@Jim
That is a very valid point.
It also affects or industry because some knock offs look like the real thing too, even though they don't perform or last as long as the product they copy.

This is really unfortunate because I've had some HKS products in the past that were top notch in quality, only downside I saw was the price.
Jim
# Jim
Friday, May 06, 2011 3:17 AM
Rockwood, That sounds like a great start to me. We have enough people starving right here in America, yet the US government is giving literally tons of free money to other countries every year.

econobox, The problem was that in the posh toy store, they sell you Chinese made products at an American made price. It wasn't like those corporations or companies passed their savings onto the American consumer, they just saw their own profits, stocks, and bonuses sore.

And it's true that more than one person has experienced sticker shock in the tuning industry.

Jim
# Jim
Friday, May 06, 2011 3:19 AM
In giving tons of free money to other countries, I mean our Tax Dollars!
econobox
# econobox
Friday, May 06, 2011 7:02 PM
@Jim
Like how some Japanese branded products are made in China but with Japan's quality assurance. I would assume Prices would be reasonable then.
As much as possible I want to buy products form legitimate companies even though I'm struggling to pay for it as they are tested etc..

I agree with JDMized, these bootleg companies don't do any R&D.

Rush
# Rush
Sunday, May 08, 2011 7:02 PM
HKS I formally promise to support you with the purchase of a couple air filters!
jmauld
# jmauld
Monday, July 18, 2011 7:06 AM
I just ran across this article. I hope you guys (MotoIQ writers) consider what you're doing to the Tool industry when you're purchasing tools from harbor freight and ebay.

http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/articletype/articleview/articleid/1849/pageid/2731/project-garage-part-iv-air-compressors.aspx
http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/articletype/articleview/articleid/1432/wrench-tips--9-wrench-in-color.aspx
http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/articletype/articleview/articleid/1944/pageid/3083/project-infiniti-g20-racecar--the-brakes.aspx

Rockwood
# Rockwood
Monday, July 18, 2011 8:29 AM
Zing!

My question would be: are these tools direct copies of other tools made by companies that spent their own time and money on R&D to build these tools?

That compressor is made by Coleman, which I'm pretty sure isn't sold by HF. Is that Coleman compressor a rip-off of a US design?

Those colored sockets are something I have never seen from Snap-On, Mac, or Craftsman, and are a genuine innovation. Not buying something just because it's made in China is ridiculous protectionism. We're talking about fake knock-offs. If a Chinese company up comes with something cool, we can't buy it because it's from HF?

I just spent some of my own time looking on the Snap-On site, and didn't find a brake flare tool at all. Looking at the Craftsman site, I found a genuine, simulated Chinesium steel kit for more money. If you can find one that is a genuine upgrade made in the US, or a US unit that our kit ripped off, then maybe you have a point.

I did, however, find a reasonably-priced made in USA flaring tool on eBay (assuming the seller isn't full of shit). When our flaring tool breaks sometime next decade, I'll try to find it at a brick and mortar store, since I'd like to at least look at it before buying.
jmauld
# jmauld
Monday, July 18, 2011 12:58 PM
Using your logic...

Since I can no longer buy HKS products for my car, there's no harm in supporting the companies that provide copies of their work?
jmauld
# jmauld
Monday, July 18, 2011 1:01 PM
Harbor Freight has been copying tools for over twenty years now. They are just now providing "innovative" tools. That is, if you want to call "colored" sockets innovative.
jmauld
# jmauld
Monday, July 18, 2011 1:07 PM
http://www.lislecorp.com/divisions/products/?product=168

Here is a flaring kit. This item might be made in China, but it's produced by a company that supports innovation, honors patents and does have some manufacturing locations in the US.

The stores may not have this item in stock, but most CARQUEST or NAPA stores carry Lisle products and can order it in for you to look at before buying it.
jmauld
# jmauld
Monday, July 18, 2011 1:12 PM

Here are a couple of the brand names that you'll find at Harbor Freight:
Chicago Electric
Central Pneumatic

Which are derivatives of the originals.
Chicago Pneumatic
Central Tools (electrical)

That's a nice little spin they put on it. :) The similarities between what has happened in the tool industry (this start long before it started happening in car parts) is identical to what is being reported here.
Rockwood
# Rockwood
Tuesday, July 19, 2011 9:53 AM
I don't buy any of the copies of HKS parts because:

1. HKS didn't make anything cool for my cars that I can't get a better version of elsewhere (intake and cams are about it).
2. Even if they were superior, I don't buy copies of these because I don't want to deal with failure down the road since it will either leave me stranded, or make me eat an expensive track day.

All of the Harbor Freight tools I own are non-critical convenience tools. However, when I went there a couple of weekends ago to pick up gloves (or should I buy US-made latex gloves, even though the HF ones are the best?) and some wobbler extensions (hard to not copy the design here, since extensions are standardized), I saw a lot of unique tools that I haven't seen at Sears, or on the Snap-On truck.

Your flaring kit says it won't work on stainless.

You still haven't shown me how MotoIQ staff writers are using knock-off tools from HF and eBay. Find me proof that my flaring tool violated a patent.

If all we're doing is buying lower-quality tools from Harbor Freight, etc., then we're rewarding them for filling a niche that Snap-On, Mac, Craftsman, et al, ignored until it was too late. Not all of us want to spend $60 on a flaring set when a $9.99 unit from HF will accomplish nearly the same goal.

To sum it up:

http://www.harborfreight.com/dollar-days-2011.html

Hard not to duplicate an existing design of duct tape, electrical tape, tape measures, hammers and safety glasses.
Rockwood
# Rockwood
Tuesday, July 19, 2011 9:54 AM
BTW, so they made a play on existing brand names. That's hardly immoral.
HighwayStar
# HighwayStar
Wednesday, August 31, 2011 8:47 PM
Wow. Mike Kojima I have one of your books lol. I honestly must comment on the everyone throwing LS into 240s and Rx-7s. You guys happy now? Seems like every car in Formula D has a LS in it. Pretty soon the only companies left that we will be able to buy from are Edelbrock, Holley and Cherrybomb... And guess what ? They are going to laugh in our faces when the LS hype dies because they don't know shit about and aren't going to learn about sr20s and rotaries. Our market is HELLA small compared to the domestic market. The purists or Elitist as they are commonly called on the net are going to be the only ones left when this LS craze dies.(and it will eventually) and at this rate there will be no companies for them to turn to for parts.
I'm not blaming v8 swaps for HKS's demise
I don't hate GM. I've owned 2 and currently drive one as a DD
I didn't rant.
/rant over

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