N1 Concepts Time Attack Honda S2000

Do they run a flat floor? Its hard to tell because the diffuser pics show some alum sheet attached to it but in the engine pics you can see the ground.

Dude, there is a lot of weight that can be easily and safely removed from that car.

@ Jeff: I don't know how much more weight there is to shave from the car. The S2000 weighs 2864 lbs. stock (according to wikipedia) and they've got it down to 2500 including the driver and roll cage.

I've always loved the Craftsquare mirrors. So nice! And expensive. I could never justify buying them for the street though. I'd be paranoid of them being hit by other peoples' doors and such.

Yeah...I didn't understand how more weight could have been removed either. Looks like a fully stripped and gutted interior to me. CF bodywork, lightened subframe, titanium exhaust, etc.

No flat floor. The car is typical Japanese, bits of really trick stuff and some amazingly cobby and crude. Japanese typicaly seem to dismiss chassis stiffness and safety and have the minimal stuff to meet the rules. Then they do elaborate seam welding, then hole saw everything. I don't get it.

Amazingly sometimes the result is really fast, I was amazed that the Cyper EVO managed to beat Sierra Sierra for instance.

Cobby like drier hose cold air and hand-held shower-head hose?
Naaaaaw.

Cool car, but I noticed a big problem with this car: it has no turbo.

Wouldn't it make more since for the exhaust to point up to help pull the air out of the diffuser?

Usualy yes but if you modulate your throttle your downforce decreses. Not good. On my car the exhaust blows the diffuser. I can't feel it but I am not the most awsome driver though.

I agree with Mile. I've always noticed this with Japanese tuner cars. You will see the most awesome titanium welding and then something important is held on by a couple tie straps.

Should be Mike and not Mile.

Hankook Z214 C91 are currently the stickiest DOT race tire on the market?! Really? Stickier than Hoosier A6? Somehow I don't believe this.

They are up to several seconds a lap faster than Hoosiers, even on a car that is light enough to go on a road course with an A6.

10.5" wide wheels?! That's a LOT of rubber..... 2500lbs w/driver is probably about 2350lbs without. That puts it at about 500lbs lighter than stock...

Jeff, if there's more weight to take out safely, I'd like to hear where you're thinking from!

Mike,

Is there any truth to the Japanese tuners thinking that a flexing chassis gets more grip than a stiff one? This is the first time I've heard of this approach.

I have had that argument with them. Bikes yes, cars no.

On a bike, it's definitely necessary as there needs to be some 'suspension' when the bike is leaned over. So they design varying amounts of flex into the swingarm and I guess the head tube area.

But for a car? I don't see how any sort of chassis flex is a good thing. F1 chassis don't flex.....

Several seconds faster than A6? Hmmmm. Strange. I haven't heard anyone at autocross nationals driving on Z216. And tires and suspension R&D there is at much higher levels compared to Redline Time Attack. If Kooks were faster all the cars going after the national titles would've switched right away.
I agree that A6 don't last much, but the solution is you just bring lots of them and change tires every few laps.

@ Mike,

Your comments to "safety coming second", and safety taking a back seat and it being how the Japanese do things are a bit confusing. It would appear that this is a dig at the cars (this and cyber-evo and others).

This cage would pass SCCA and NASA "time trail"/"soloI" regulations. With the addition of 2 door bars per side it would pass SCCA and NASA CCR/GCR rules for racing. No class in NASA is required to have a fire system. And many classes in the SCCA aren't required to have fire systems either.

On a typical SCCA/NASA weekend far more cars have a simple extinguisher then a fire system. And some people have decent arguments as to why a hand held fire extinguisher is better then a fire system.

If only the "Japanese make safety second" then why would the FIA for WRC, BTCC, and WTCC have a requirement that "X% of the cage structure's weight must be above (some given measurement i don't remember exactly)."

This is because teams would design there cages to have a minimal structure up high to lower the CG of there cars.


I don't really see the problem. This isn't a wheel to wheel race car, and some simple modification would get it into any club racing organization for wheel to wheel. So i don't see the huge lack in safety that you seem to imply is the case here.

The fact is that this car, cyber-evo, cusco/tomei STI, are purpose built cars. There purpose is to get the one single fastest lap possible. They aren't designed/built with w2w in mind.

And as far as the cage not stiffening the chassis, after seeing what Honda R&D built/did with the Acura RSX, Civic SI, and Acura TSX, and honda s2000 cage wise i don't think this cage is missing too much.

@MX5

The tire is only available in one size for DOT-R compound, so you'd have to have a car in a class that came with 18"wheels and a ~285 width tire would be enough.

Add to the fact that it is NOT an easy tire to get, IE race shops across the country don't have these sitting around, and it doesn't surprise me that no one runs them.

In the slick classes the Avon is a VERY VERY fast tire, but very few people run it.

Let's just say I disagree with you. Let me say that minimal to just meet the rules doesn't cut it either. Also have a look at the pro cars in World Challenge, Various Euro touring car classes and even Grand Am, heck even the smarter and better prepped club racing cars and you will find better cages than your typical Japanese, race, tuner and drift cars.

JDM style is to spend hours stitch welding a chassis, then going crazy with a hole saw and a dimple die to take out all the stiffness you just put in. Hence the title of the article in reference to the rocket powered, air dropped WWII Kamikaze planes. They also make the super cut bend methoud instead of using mandrel bends which is beyond me.

Its not just safety, its handling as well that suffers. Chassis stiffness is everything, however Japanese damper technology and suspension technology is behind as well.

I've heard multiple Japanese tuners discuss the "required flex" in a chassis to get it to handle correctly. I think that might only be the case if you are using Japanese suspension!

jimmyc: I believe the cage was added on to and modified here in the US by the guys over at Designcraft Fab to make it legal. I believe Mike was referring to the Japanese tuners and not actual Japanese race cars. Japanese tuners usually build shoddy minimalist cages and that's a fact. Yes, they are purpose built for time attack, but nothing changes the fact that they are shoddy and they are minimalist. I like countries that do not depend on lawyers (e.g. the driver gets into the car so he's signed his own death sentence and btw tough shit if you die because nobody's paying your family shit).

BTW, time attack cars can still going directly into a wall or roll multiple times. And when shit happens, it happens at a higher rate of speed that it would in a W2W race making safety just as paramount or even more important than W2W. Remember the HKS TRB02 carbon EVO? Taniguchi put it straight into a wall when the brakes failed.

mx5: jimmyc is right when he says race shops don't have them sitting around, but if you know where to get them they are easy to purchase. Dynamic Autosports in Lake Forest, CA and City Tire in South Gate, CA are the two places that usually have C91s in stock. They are ONLY available in 275/35/18s right now, but it sounds like a 335/30/18 will be available in the near future.

Your quote, "And tires and suspension R&D there is at much higher levels compared to Redline Time Attack. If Kooks were faster all the cars going after the national titles would've switched right away."

Is this 1968 in Vietnam? hahah I had to throw that in there. But seriously, you must have skipped looking at the Unlimited class cars at RTA. Suspension for cone dodging is going to be a fair bit easier than developing an Unlimited class time attack car's suspension

I didn't even catch that about autcross suspension being at a higher level of development than Time Attack. Be serious, Autocross is driving in a PARKING LOT. Its not even racing. Sorry but I have never been an Autocross fan. I have been involved in winning national titles in it and I could do so again if I cared so I do know some stuff about it. I would just have to get paid to do it. Hahahaha.

@ jimmyc & Mike:
Well, the limited size maybe has a big role in it.
About the shops which have those. a bunch of these autocrossers deal with tire manifacturers directly - i.e. Hankook RS3 tires come directly from Hankook.

@ Mike:
It might be driving in a parking lot, but suspension and tires development is the game there. If tire manifacturers decide to make super sticky stuff which last just one autocross lap, people would still run these, bring lots of tires and change tires after each lap.
I know people who buy all current available tire brands of fast rubber allowed in class for test weekends to figure out which tires will give them a hundreds of a second advantage over the other guy the week after.
Penske, JRZ, Moton and whatever $$$$$ suspension wise comes to mind you see it under those autocross cars ...

You don't have to be a fan or to like driving lots to understand what's going on there if you're in the racing industry. Like you don't have to be a Nascar or drag racing fan to know the amount of R&D involved to surpass the competition.

I am not talking autocross the kids in your neighbourhood decided to try one weekend. I am talking about the SCCA nationals event.

@ Eric:
Let me ask you this. How many RTA cars are currently running such pots for example:

http://photos.motoiq.com/MotoIQ/Features/Rahal-Letterman-ALMS-BMW-M3/JEF6107/844126970_BFqTx-X2.jpg

and then how many are optimizing stuff on race weekend when necessary.
How many RTA participants carry shock dynos in the trailers and alter damping curves on race weekends when needed?

Do you have shock and tire manifacturers catering their big rigs and stuff at the RTA events to help the teams running their products so they can claim the title?

I am just curious ...

I have built a car and done race support that won a national championship and a Pro Solo Championship when I was a dumb kid. It might sound arrogant but I could easily do it again with a compressed development cycle if I was interested but I am not unless someone wants to hire me as a consultant. Autocross is an entry level motorsport. At least that's my opinion. It also trips me out how Autocross guys get all indignant and defend how elite their sport is....

I am not a good Autocross driver, it bores me too much for me to try to get good at it but I can build a national winning car working with a decent driver. The thought of it interests me so little that I would have to get paid a decent amount to do it, sort of like my current involvement with Pro Drifting.

Sure I might offend a bunch of you that are autocrossers but thats just my opinion. I still highly respect good autocrossing and personally know how hard it is to be at the top levels. Sort of like what I think about drifting however Drifting does require courage, commitment and is all or nothing serious consequences driving which is more like bull fighting.

Time attack involves engineering for sure, not only vehicle dynamics but aero and engine development. As far as support, the reasons why there is so much at the nationals is the SCCA format for determining championships. Its all determined at one event so its easy for manufactures to provide support. I kinda don't like this format, you could be killing it all season and have an off day and do poorly at the runnoffs or the Nationals.

Hemingway thought racing, bullfighting and war was cool., he would have probably liked drifting but probably not autocross.

mx5: I guess you are right if you compare a SCCA cone dodging nationals event vs. a local Redline Time Attack. The RTA car will appear to be ill equipped comparatively.

It makes sense for tire companies and suspension companies to be at the SCCA nationals because 1) the sheer number of competitors is much higher and this means its going to be easy for the manufacturers to get support sales and 2) the sheer number of drivers can be fooled into believing that they need to spend money by "engineers" to constantly change damping, springs, setup. tires, etc. for the same cone dodging session in a different parking lot is also going to be much higher. Easy money...cha ching!

But seriously, I still stand by my comment about cone dodging suspension development being a fair bit easier than an unlimited class time attack car. I am speaking purely from the suspension development standpoint. I'm not comparing equipment on rigs at these events, # of linear pots, or # of shock and tire manufacturers present. The fact is a high powered, heavy mass, small tired car constantly skating on the edge of control in massively variable conditions is going to be subjected to many more variables (# of different turns x # of tracks competed on in the country) than dodging cones left and right in different parking lots.

I am not talking about tracks and road racing in general. Above I mentioned Redline Time Attack in particular. It is still in its infancy and I haven't seen suspension development there which could wow me yet. That's why I said that national level autocross is currently at a higher level than that.

Redline Time Attack is also just an entry level motorsport. There are a couple of teams which are above the others but still nothing quite pro.

Now go build yourself a car which gets to win the 24h of LeMans or the 24h or Nurburgring and then I would be impressed ;)

Btw it was funny when a GT3 Lotus with almost no prep took part in the World Time attack in Oz just for giggles and track time and finished something like 4th overall ...

With the right budget and team I am confident that we would do well at LeMans or Nurburgring in one of the Touring Car classes. Its mostly about the budget. I am involved with looking into a 24 hour race at Nurburgring effort now.

Where I would not be confident is Formula car stuff as I don't have the experience.

Time Attack is much more committed and technically challenging than Autocross, its the reason why I participate in TIme Attack and help some of the top teams and could give a shit about autocross. I am not diminishing or dismissing autocross but it doesn't hold my interest technically or as a participant.

After all what is navigating a track at high speeds vs dodging cones in a parking lot. Its the classic Hemingway sport vs game argument.

I hope you autocrossers are not taking me seriously though. If you love autocross, thats fine with me, just don't expect me to start doing it (unless money is involved, PM me if you need a suspension consultant).

mx5: Almost no prep probably wouldn't be accurate. It did start life as a factory Lotus FIA GT3 race car. Its not like it was a used stock Elise bought from craigslist and then built the week before. The guys at Prepp'd Motorsport who built the car did have time to go to the pubs to drink and eat where I met them several times the week before the event. 1800lbs vehicle weight, 500bhp, and a pro driver got it a 4th place finish which it rightfully earned. It will be interesting to see how the car does next year.

Mike: Hey the other Mike was talking to me about a 24hr car for Nurburgring. Are you involved with that idea too?

Yup, I want to build the "team america" car. The grapics are gonna be like one of the team america planes. Dirka Dirka

@jimmyc: The more I see Japanese 'tuner' cars, the less I'm impressed with them. There are a few good ones, just like here, but the majority are crap, just like here. There's this 'mystic' about JDM Tuners, but quite honestly, a lot of their so-called engineering is garbage. There was a particular Evo X recently in Modified mag where I was completely baffled about how they did some of their equipment setup. I was like, WTF were they thinking? It's going to hurt power more than anything!

Mike. Drifting is nothing like bullfighting. When was the last time a pro drifter died drifting?

"Hemingway thought racing, bullfighting and war was cool."

No, he admired people who put their lives on the line. You have to look at when he lived, (July 21, 1899 – July 2, 1961). Racing was very dangerous back then and you were really putting you life at risk being a race driver. Just compare the racing fatalities during his lifetime to after till the present day. There have been many improvements to protect the driver since so I really wouldn't know what he would think of all the new safety. But since drifting a car is not the most dangerous motor sport, I'd doubt he would care for it or auto crossing.

I know you are promoting drifting but you're analogies should be realistic. What's next? Drifting is more dangerous than patrolling a humvee in Iraq? Or building a drift car is more complex than building CERN's Large Hedron Collider?

You know what, don't you have anything better to do than argue with me or whoever writes stuff. I do. Its fun for awhile but I am too busy to keep it up! :) You remind me of my friend Naji who loves to argue. Its more efficient to debate in person though.

Drifting can be real dangerous. We had a serious accident that totaled the Lexus, 90 mph into the blunt end of a K rail and if it were not for our non JDM cage, things would have been a lot worse. It also requires commitment as drifting totals more cars than most motorsports. Autocrossing, well, you might get some scratches from a really serious cone hit.

However I have been at an autocross where someone died, actually two people and another where someone lost an arm in freak accidents. Probably everyone has seen the UTube autocross accidents as well so maybe autocross is dangerous. I take it back Hemmingway would have liked autocrossing.

Mike, I'm in on the 24hrs of Nurburgring deal. Now we just need somebody to fund it!

I hear we might get funding from a tire company. Stay tuned.

I want in too! I linked the 'Ring article to a buddy of mine, actually a top level auto-x guy. He wants to go just to watch the race after the article :)

Wait a second...if the two Mikes are involved then I already know who the tire manufacturer is. Cool by me. Now who's car are we going to use? Are we trying to win out right or just do well in our class?

@spdracerut

I agree with you.

I've been involved with the 25 hours of thunderhill since 2003. We have seen a very 'popular' JDM tunner show up year after year after year.

And every car they have brought has been down right scary. Not because the cage was minimalistic, but because half of the welds were not 360 degrees.

But I've also seen the same stuff from Factory backed, sold, Pro race cars here in the US. (A rather popular ST 4 or 5 years back).

Of course it would be nice to win outright but I think we could only expect to do well in class with the sort of bujet we could raise. I htink building something like the Falken Super Taikyu car would work, Eric you do the Motor, I do the chassis, Johnny Mac Aero and get the industry behind this, we could better the Falken car I think. I think that car is a Nismo 370R, not a big deal.

I know where there's a blue 350z we can use. Let's do it.