jeffball610
 MotoIQ Newb Send PM Posts:75

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| 07-30-2011 03:04 PM |
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I've been flipping though my old magazines as of late due to the lack of cool/interesting articles in new mags and started bench racing with the USSC of Sport Compact Car Magazine.
I loved those contests. The idea that a REAL street car could compete with race cars. However, it seems that most fast cars are either not streetable, or not practicle.
So here's my thought. If you (MotoIQ visitors) could make a real street car that could compete at the track, what would it be? Does it already exist? What about just upgrading a few things on an already great production car? What about designing something from the ground up?
The catch is, it must still follow the USSC standards of being a street car. It must pass emissions, be liveable (if not comfortable) on the street, be fast and fun to drive. Price is of little concern, but is a factor.
Can we as a community design such a car? Can we make something cool and fun to drive that we can live with on the streets?
All thoughts and commets are appreciated. |
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Big J
 MotoIQ Engineer Send PM Posts:559

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| 07-30-2011 08:25 PM |
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z06 corvette |
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jeffball610
 MotoIQ Newb Send PM Posts:75

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| 07-31-2011 07:19 AM |
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You don't find the Corvette too cheap in construction? Or the fact that it still uses leaf springs for the rear suspension? I love Corvettes and a dream car of mine is a 67 Corvette. However, I feel the Corvette is an unsophisticated machine. In the realm of that type of car, I would vote Aston Martin DB9 or DBS. If money were no object. If I were to dream up a car, it would look as pretty as an Aston Martin, be muscular like a modern muscle car, have the character of a classic car, the power and handling of a world class sports car, and be turbo charged. I just love turbos. |
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Big J
 MotoIQ Engineer Send PM Posts:559

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| 07-31-2011 09:18 AM |
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I'll see your DB9 and raise you an Ultima GTR |
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Dusty_Duster
 MotoIQ Engineer Send PM Posts:320
 Maryland, USA
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| 07-31-2011 09:19 AM |
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S197 Mustang. The aftermarket part choice is incredible (including the full Griggs suspension kit which completely redoes the suspension and creates a 50/50 weight balance) and the sky is the limit as far as power is concerned. The few weaknesses the chassis has (understeer, mainly) can be remedied with high-quality aftermarket parts. It is entirely possible to have a reliable 600+ horsepower S197 Mustang with linear power delivery and amazing handling. I also might be biased. |
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Big J
 MotoIQ Engineer Send PM Posts:559

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| 07-31-2011 09:58 AM |
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As far as the Corvette goes...... what other car has served as a company's halo car for as long of a stretch as the Corvette? Drive to the track with the air conditioner on, "race" all weekend, drive back home. As far as "a REAL street car could compete with race cars" is a delusion. Magazines of the tuner genre have blurred the lines between street car, daily driver, super show car, and race car within modern culture for as long as they have been around. There is no one car that will do all things great, period, most tuner mags have failed to reiterate this. My 300whp turbo daily driver is NOT a race car, it never will be. My company's 265whp race car, is not a street car, it never will be.
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RallyBob
 MotoIQ Grease Monkey Send PM Posts:154

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| 07-31-2011 01:09 PM |
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I've always liked this analogy. 'Hot hatch' road car, very fast and $$$ road car, and real race car on the track at the same time.
www.youtube.com/watch |
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Doctor Bruce
 MotoIQ Master Send PM Posts:134

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| 07-31-2011 02:25 PM |
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Jeffball610 - Um the Corvette developed IRS in '63. It ain't a mustang! Sorry Vince  I think I need more qualifiers before picking a car. For example, points for initial cost, totoal build cost (labor doesn't count) - initial cost, lb/hp limits, % of intact interior, etc. I don't like the cost isn't a factor qualified. I'm wound like that. Ask me my favorite movie and I'll ask which genre! Big J - Thank You! How often do you ever see a true "street" car in USCC competitions or even "street" tire class time attack? The used Z06 would be an excellent starting point for an Ultimate Street Car. Rallybob - Hilarious, although very Euro in flavor! |
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jeffball610
 MotoIQ Newb Send PM Posts:75

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| 07-31-2011 06:09 PM |
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Bruce, the Corvette does have IRS, but it still uses a leaf spring setup. I believe it's made of carbon fiber. I love the idea of a rear transaxle, and the car is a huge bang for the buck. But is it really "Ultimate" with it's flaws? Does the suspension work as well as it should? Top Gear hated the Z06 off the track for it's suspension and cheap body work. However, the same A/C comfort and weekend warrior car could be used for a Porche. The EVO and STI are great daily cars that track well. Big J, I think my initial statement was a little gray. A "real" race car to me, are cars that run La Mans and such. A cage and stripped interior is not my idea of a race car. Even dry sump oiling systems and huge 6-piston calipers are found on production vehicles now days. Also, does the Ultima really count as a street car? I'll never know because I'll never fit in one. I honestly don't have an answer to this question. That's why I posted it here. I love Aston Martins, the GT-R, Corvettes, 70's Japanese econo boxes, 90's cheap speed, and everything in between. I think as a community, we could come up with a product that we would enjoy and buy that can compete with what these auto manufacturers have to offer. I started to really contemplate this the other day when I saw some YouTube videos for the Caterham 7. Not a street car (not really) but a kit car that would be a blast to drive at the track. I bet it has a huge bang for the buck. Keep posting ideas. I'm happy to be shot down by all of you in my effort for clarity and understanding. I love to dream and create, and want to hear what others would come up with. How about a mid engine, turbo V6 like the Noble? Modern chassis and engine in a classic body? A $50k Lamborghini? |
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speedball3
 MotoIQ Newb Send PM Posts:69

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| 08-01-2011 01:15 PM |
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Posted By jeffball610 on 07-31-2011 08:09 PM
Big J, I think my initial statement was a little gray. A "real" race car to me, are cars that run La Mans and such. A cage and stripped interior is not my idea of a race car. Even dry sump oiling systems and huge 6-piston calipers are found on production vehicles now days. Also, does the Ultima really count as a street car? I'll never know because I'll never fit in one.
Jeffball, I don't understand what type of car you are looking for.... was there a misplaced word in there? I thought all Le Mans cars are purpose-built race cars, caged and gutted. The 2011 Le Mans had so many high speed crashes between the prototypes and sports cars I'd be worried if they DIDN'T have roll cages. Even 24hr Nurburgring (spelling?) cars, where you get more of the "street" cars, have cages (to my knowledge).
I thought Corvettes only used leaf springs for an odd type of anti-sway bar effect? I vaguely remember reading some article about that, but I don't have the motivation to track it down. Still, I think it would be a worthy candidate for any sports-car competition and leaf springs or not, it handles pretty good. I think a Corvette is a great "dual-purpose" car, since that's what we seem to be talking about, though it would lose if real practicality is involved (ie driving around more than 2 people).
Anyway for a streetable, practical dual purpose car, my favorite candidates are (in no particular order):
IS-F, M3, STI, Evo, GTR, 911 (anything but convertible or automatic), Mustang, Panamera Turbo
Slightly less practical (aka 2 seaters):
NSX, Lotus Elise/Exige, Cayman, Miata (not really fast, but prob really fun), LFA, nearly any Aston/Ferrari/Lambo, McLaren F1 |
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jeffball610
 MotoIQ Newb Send PM Posts:75

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| 08-01-2011 07:15 PM |
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speedball, you have some really good suggestions for cars. But are they "Ultimate"? Also, maybe my wording was missed somewhere. Someone else stated that "track cars" are mislabeled and some feel that a "track car" is just something with a cage. My argument was that to me a track car is a purpose built car. Maybe we can fix my thread here by actually coming up with a formula similar to SCC Mag and assigning values to these cars to find a relative number to match them to each other. The biggest issue with that is coming up with values to fill in for each category. How do you find the emissions values for a Veyron? How can we find track times for each car to compare? And how can you possibly do the "Grandma" test? Maybe I'll play with my GranTurismo 5 game and see if there are comparable results to be found in the virtual world. I know this is all hypothetical internet bench racing, but I find it interesting to compare these cars and find value in the results for others to gain from. But I guess you could never put value on intangibles like "fun to drive" like a Miata. But can we do something here? |
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smartbomb
 MotoIQ Super Genius Send PM Posts:1904

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| 08-01-2011 10:46 PM |
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My EVO IX. |
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spdracerut
 MotoIQ Engineer Send PM Posts:613

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| 08-02-2011 06:39 AM |
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I'm working towards it with Project S2000. If anyone wants to lend me about $20k, it'll get there a lot faster I even upgraded the stereo, but I can't quite bring myself to put a sub in it..... though I do miss my low-end bass. The components in the doors will just have to suffice for now. |
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smartbomb
 MotoIQ Super Genius Send PM Posts:1904

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| 08-02-2011 07:43 AM |
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From an editorial standpoint this is an event I think I owuld be really interested in doing. |
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smartbomb
 MotoIQ Super Genius Send PM Posts:1904

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| 08-02-2011 07:45 AM |
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I think the event has to have real street driven cars. Just two classes RWD/AWD and FWD. Full interiors, no lexan, no R compound tires and no race compound brake pads on pump gas. Keep it simple. Lap time around SOW or some other course. |
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jeffball610
 MotoIQ Newb Send PM Posts:75

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| 08-02-2011 07:56 AM |
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Smartbomb, just talk to Dave about what it is you need to get this done. He's done the USCC before and should know how this works. If this is a "real" test, then there's no need to have everyone compete on the same day like the original USCC. If anyone wants to do something like this and have the connections, Top Gear USA might be someone to talk to about getting some of this done. However, I don't feel there needs to be separate classes. I'm in this just for the data collected. If you find a FWD car is more "Ultimate" than an AWD car, then good for you. But the drivetrain shouldn't matter from just a data standpoint. The advantages to a particular drivetrain would be obvious in certain tests just like ABS and such. I highly doubt that a test of this nature will ever come to fruition, but I still find the idea interesting and would love to have something like this happen. |
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jere
 MotoIQ Grease Monkey Send PM Posts:248

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| 08-02-2011 11:38 AM |
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I vote build a car from the ground up, FWD Nissan VQ engine and trans in the back of a Locost 7 like car. Or if we are starting from manufactured sheet metal cars I vote air cooled VW chassis with suspension design update or maybe a well worked over Toyota MR2 The part that always pisses me off about a lot of these tests on shows like Top Gear, are the test drivers are always whining about harshness of ride with no actual standard of measurement. They complain about the stock EVOs ride being unbearable for daily driving for example. They could test for fastest around a track with the least coffee spilled from a cup or the least eggs being broken or something. |
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smartbomb
 MotoIQ Super Genius Send PM Posts:1904

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| 08-02-2011 10:44 PM |
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Daves test is too complicated |
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Dusty_Duster
 MotoIQ Engineer Send PM Posts:320
 Maryland, USA
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| 08-04-2011 01:19 AM |
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Posted By Mike Kojima on 08-02-2011 09:45 AM
I think the event has to have real street driven cars. Just two classes RWD/AWD and FWD. Full interiors, no lexan, no R compound tires and no race compound brake pads on pump gas. Keep it simple. Lap time around SOW or some other course.
I would totally enter my car in the contest in a few years after I have more suspension mods done. |
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Toms
 MotoIQ Newb Send PM Posts:52

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| 08-05-2011 05:10 PM |
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This: http://turbohightechperformance.automotive.com/58462/0604-turbo-acura-nsx/index.html
Or
This: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3611/3572304882_820c34453f_z.jpg?zz=1 |
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