kj
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| 10-05-2011 10:28 AM |
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So I'm mostly making mistakes when I'm trying to pass people. I went back and looked at the videos and you're absolutely right. My question is, how should I pass when I'm by far the biggest "momentum" guy? On that particular track the only two places I've made passes stick were (one time) diving in on the hairpin at the end of the front straight away. I consistently outbrake my opponents, but I'm usually not close enough to make a pass. The place where I made a ton of passes was on the long sweeping right hander going around the outside. I kept trying to go around the outside in the technical sections and the second hair pin and kept missing. I should probably give up on that tactic.
When I'm racing guys who put up similar lap times (high 1:19, low 1:20s), or even guys who are two or three seconds a lap slower, I tend to be dramatically faster in the corners and dramatically slower on the straights. This means I end up catching them in places where it's really hard to pass or passing them in places where they can pass me right back. What should I do to deal with situations like this?
And yah, this is a lot of fun. I do a lot more than share videos. My students built the car last year during summer vacation. This winter vacation they're going to make a new engine. I'm getting paid to play with cars and build a racer Daewoo. Some months I almost feel guilty taking my salary. Well, right up until the point where the school makes me buy my own parts ...
Well there is no absolutes, each situation is fluid and you have to be ready with multiple options in your pocket.
When passing under braking you have to be in position to control the situation, we've all seen that dare pass where the overtaking car dives in under braking makes the pass but carries too much speed and goes wide allowing the other driver to move under, get on the gas and take the spot back.
You have to be in charge from the second you pull along side. One of the biggest mistakes I see drivers do is get on the brakes later pull of the pass but actually pass the other car too soon, then because they are on the inside they turn in early which takes them way off line as the end up hugging the inside all around the corner, the car being passed is on his normal line and if he's patient he just has to wait to pounce back.
Instead of turning in early, modulate your brakes so you never actually pass the other car completely stay next to him until your normal driving line comes into play then turn in. It will force the other driver to make a decision between being pushed wide into the marbles or really slowing the car down and letting you have the corner. He has no other options because you're controlling the good part of the track. He has no options but to concede that corner.
As for getting by people with more horsepower, it's just plain hard sometimes. There is no set plan other than driving the track better and waiting for the proper opportunity to present itself. When you're just lapping the track and not actually racing, I think the best thing you can do is come into the pits drive through and give yourself some space and get back out there alone where you can work on your basics or whatever your goals for that days track time were. I'm a firm beliver in only racing when there's an actual race going on.
You lose valuble track time spending a session fighting it out for a postion that isn't anything more than an ego boost in the end. Unless your sessions goal was to see how the car feels running in dirty air or driving off lineI see no good coming from following others around. If you can't get by them in a lap or two then get away from them and go about your business.
I'm not saying running in traffic is a bad thing to do when practicing but when you have to go off line to attempt passes that won't stick or your lap times are slower than normal I can't see anything good coming out of it. Track time is expensive, tires and fuel are expensive and generally the events are too few and far between to be wasting time doing something that has no actual long term benefit. |
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smartbomb
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| 10-05-2011 10:44 PM |
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I just learned some good ideas! |
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Lessendz
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Honolulu Hawaii
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| 10-06-2011 11:29 AM |
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autoX not a pro sport? ha ha
try to convince the "Hardcore" conesmashers of that..
they keep tryin to Sell some gibberish about AutoX's seeing corners 3x more often than a F1 driver
i keep tellin em.. a F1 driver goin 3x faster than yooooou
then wannabe start to cry about how its an affordable type of competition/racing
of which i reply... so is GranTurismo on Playstation.. |
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kj
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| 10-06-2011 11:59 AM |
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Autocross has a lot to offer the motorsports world and for many fills a gap between being in racing or not being in racing at all. It's not road racing but then it never tried to be. I myself have only auto-crossed a few times (we called it slaloms back then) but learned a lot about driving fast from the time spent pounding around that little track. You're busier on a autoX course it's not unlike the top open wheel racers that use 125 shifter karts as a training tool in the offseason, seat time is seat time it all adds up in the end. BTW Some of the top driving schools in the world use autocross setups as exercises in their training.
Myself I don't participate in autocrosses nor do I attend events but I'll never look down my nose at those that do find it or any of the solo type on track time based events as an attractive alternative to full out racing. |
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Lessendz
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| 10-06-2011 12:20 PM |
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autoX is good fer zero experience / zero money beginners..
unfortunately you won't learn advanced driving techniques to help you become a more complete driver @ these events
nobody Learns to Run fast... PERFECTING their Walk quickly... |
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DaewooOfDeath
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| 10-06-2011 06:21 PM |
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Posted By Lessendz on 10-06-2011 02:20 PM
autoX is good fer zero experience / zero money beginners..
unfortunately you won't learn advanced driving techniques to help you become a more complete driver @ these events
nobody Learns to Run fast... PERFECTING their Walk quickly...
You learn some pretty advanced techniques autocrossing, and you learn to do them quickly. The real limitation to autocross is that you don't get high speed corners, the real benefit is that you're going to be steering/braking/working the throttle much faster than you would be in a road race. Speed =/= skill. It takes a lot less skill to run a 13 second quarter mile at 105 mph than it does to slide a rally car around Monaco at 40 mph.
Randy Probst, LeMans winner and SpeedWorldChallenge Champion, came from autocross.
BTW, the guy I referred to is a multi time autocross champ, but he is also part of a team that races Grand Am Porsches, which are pro by any definition. |
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DaewooOfDeath
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| 10-06-2011 06:22 PM |
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Posted By kj on 10-06-2011 01:59 PM
Autocross has a lot to offer the motorsports world and for many fills a gap between being in racing or not being in racing at all. It's not road racing but then it never tried to be. I myself have only auto-crossed a few times (we called it slaloms back then) but learned a lot about driving fast from the time spent pounding around that little track. You're busier on a autoX course it's not unlike the top open wheel racers that use 125 shifter karts as a training tool in the offseason, seat time is seat time it all adds up in the end. BTW Some of the top driving schools in the world use autocross setups as exercises in their training.
Myself I don't participate in autocrosses nor do I attend events but I'll never look down my nose at those that do find it or any of the solo type on track time based events as an attractive alternative to full out racing.
Got my start in autocross. Unfortunately, autocrosses are pretty thin on the ground here in Korea. The thing that really sucks about this is that I think the Woo would be a better autocross car than road racer, at least with the current engine.
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smartbomb
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| 10-06-2011 10:22 PM |
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I got my start in autocross and was bored to tears by it. I guess I learned how to left foot brake in autocross but I could not stay engaged in it enough to get any good at, not like road racing which is 10x more fun. Randy Pobst taught me how to drive when I was a super beginner maybe 26 years ago.
A lot of autocrossers (not all) crack me up because they look down at almost all other forms of motorsports!
I think a shifter kart is nothing at all like autocross because it actualy really fun!
I want to add autocross content here but none of our editors like it. |
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DaewooOfDeath
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| 10-06-2011 10:59 PM |
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You guys autocross the S2000 and the Mustang, right?
Autocross isn't as fun for me as track racing, but that's just personal preference. I will say I think a good driver can do more to overcome faster cars in an autocross than on a track. Part of my ongoing distaste for Ferraris came from autocrossing against this dude with a massive ego who managed to drive his slick shod F40 to times slightly slower than me and my friend, driving an 80 Corolla, on the aforementioned junkyard tires. That and the guy in the 360 who wouldn't move over at Reno-Fernley and the Ferrari owners club that's ruined the Virginia City Hill Climbs and ... |
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kj
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| 10-07-2011 09:28 AM |
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My problem with autocross was always the down time, I grew up with road racing, my stepfather raced Porsches so from 5 years old and onward I was a real track rat, I myself had raced motocross before I turned to cars and autocross was just too much waiting around for the 60 second burst of fun. Plus I like to tinker on the car and autocross really didn't afford that opportunity to tinker at the track. Well I guess you could tinker but with no real track time tinkering might dial you out just as easy as it might make an improvement
But like I said it has it's place and fills a void that allows people to enjoy driving cars that they might not be able to do otherwise.
Oh and Mike I wasn't comparing autocross to shifter karts just making an observation that they both keep the driver incredibly busy in the seat. |
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Lessendz
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| 10-07-2011 12:22 PM |
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Posted By DaewooOfDeath on 10-06-2011 08:21 PM
Posted By Lessendz on 10-06-2011 02:20 PM
autoX is good fer zero experience / zero money beginners..
unfortunately you won't learn advanced driving techniques to help you become a more complete driver @ these events
nobody Learns to Run fast... PERFECTING their Walk quickly...
You learn some pretty advanced techniques autocrossing, and you learn to do them quickly. The real limitation to autocross is that you don't get high speed corners, the real benefit is that you're going to be steering/braking/working the throttle much faster than you would be in a road race. Speed =/= skill. It takes a lot less skill to run a 13 second quarter mile at 105 mph than it does to slide a rally car around Monaco at 40 mph.
Randy Probst, LeMans winner and SpeedWorldChallenge Champion, came from autocross.
BTW, the guy I referred to is a multi time autocross champ, but he is also part of a team that races Grand Am Porsches, which are pro by any definition.
no, you learn basic techniques and how to mesh them together at autoX.. practice of advanced techniques require situations never encountered in autoX... BTW is thinking/analysing a technique??? cause IMHO that is the ONLY thing which must be done Quickly.. driving input must all be done smoothly.. whether that is fast or slow depends on if the vehicle is moving fast or slow...
but its like i alwayz tell them babyGirls...
"Don't Worry, i race cars... the Faster i go the Smoother i get.. but if ya want me to go Slow Quick i might have to be a Jerk with it" LoL |
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BoxedFox
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| 10-07-2011 01:22 PM |
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AutoX is definitely better than nothing, but I'd much rather that new drivers spend their time in karts. They won't teach you how to drive a particular car, but they work wonders in teaching you how to drive and race. Only downside is that it's a fairly physical activity and they will beat the hell out of you if the seat doesn't fit right. |
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kj
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| 10-07-2011 03:02 PM |
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BTW is thinking/analysing a technique??? You bet it is and it has to be developed just like any other driving technique. It takes a lot of seat time to be able to cut through the static and be able breakdown and analyze things happening in the cockpit in a rational process. I'm sure Mike can relate stories of working with drivers who can spend 45 minutes talking about what happened in a 15 minute session vs. the driver that can spend all day lapping and at the end of the day hardly communicate any worthwhile feedback at all. |
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Lessendz
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| 10-07-2011 05:51 PM |
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then do you believe OVER-thinking/analyzing to be a developed driving technique as well?? ha ha
cause right now i'd KILL to have better reaction & reflexes instead of an experienced mind..
ahhhh but time and experience do not accumulate that way..
at least to me, Driving before was a pure feeling..
now its clouded by experience(both good & bad)
when young and inexperienced at least your reflexes may save you from techniques you don't yet have..
when old you hope the rollcage saves you from the techniques you do!! |
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kj
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| 10-07-2011 10:34 PM |
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I want to make sure I don't speak out of turn here so this might get a little lengthy Lessendz.
First let me say I think on most levels of motosports reaction time and courage as "intangibles" are somewhat over-rated... If you want to race on any level if you want to drive a racecar of any type I think you've overcome the courage issue. And I think other than the top tiers of motosports the reaction time thing is a bit of a misused term.
I believe experience overcomes a lot, learned spatial awareness and being able to think ahead and plot and plan in the seat will overcome even the poorest of reaction times in all but the most extreme circumstances.
I'm not saying you can be a complete mess physically and still pull it off. I'm assuming a certain level of health and mental acuity here...lol
We've all seen quite a few drivers over the years in their mid to late 50's doing well on some pretty big stages. I think the biggest hurdle for anyone as age creeps up is the actual physical aspects of the sport thats why the older drivers tend to migrate to touring cars, GT cars and the like instead of the open wheel higher demand type cars.
Mentally I thinks it's all about commitment, staying engaged with the sports underpinnings that drew you to it in the first place. I think more drivers slow down more from a lack of commitment or focus than those that slow down from a realization of their own mortality (although a couple good trips into the wall will make you think twice about trying to take turn 6 at Laguna with a minor breathe of the throttle) or as I've seen and experienced myself the fact that you've got a ton of time and money into this bucket of bolts and risking it all on a trophy and check that barely covers that weekends expenses plays on your subconscious (holy cow I just spelled subconscious and the spell checker didn't kick in)
This is hard to articulate, good question...lol
All in all I don't think anyone who wants it bad enough can't find a way to overcome their own obstacles. You may feel you've lost an edge but if you treat it like we'd treat a troublesome car, break down the problem into digestible portions and make the proper adjustments we can give ourselves that edge again. Racing is a pretty big ego sport and sometimes self analyzing can be hard for us to admit we're not getting the job done or we've slipped in some way but I don't believe there's anything that can't be overcome. I think for a lot people admitting they have lost an edge is the biggest obstacle.
Also a lot of it depends on how you're wired to start with, some racers get into the sport because they love cars first and once introduced to the racing aspect it appeals to them, others get into it strictly for the competition it just happens to be racecars they fell into, it could just as easily be motocross or GP bikes and that competitive fire that drives them, what pushes them to excel.
True story about how some drivers are hardwired, Eddie Lawson the former GP rider is an acquaintance of mine. I didn't know him when he raced bikes but met him when he was racing Indy Lights and later Indycars for a brief stint. Through a close friend I got to know him better when he started racing 250 super karts and 125 shifters. I went up to the kart track at Willow Springs one Friday evening to watch him race the 125. It was a mediocre chassis that had just been assembled so he and his crew were having issues but Eddie being Eddie was wringing that things neck and because he's really good he was one of the top karts. In the main race he took second to a teenage kid. The kid pulled off a brilliant ballsy pass on the next to the last lap to take the win. There's no prize money here, just a 2 foot tall trophy that probably cost 20 bucks...
The Karts pull into post race impound and this kid bounds out of his cart and runs towards Lawson he's ecstatic he's just raced Eddie Lawson and won, he runs up to Lawson and says something like that was so cool that was the best and reaches out to shake Lawson's hand. Lawson pushes the kid aside and says, "yeah you're a real fucking Aryton Senna" and walks away. The kid and his dad are speechless. The kid looks like he wants to cry. The kids crew is so angry they start a fight with Lawson's crew that has to be broke up by the other racers in the pits... haha
The friend of mine who has been pounding around racetracks forever was there and actually pretty close to Lawson though other business endeavors shakes his head and says you're a drivers coach go save that kids career...lol So I sit on the pit wall while things settle down think of a plan and wander off to find the kids trailer. I introduce myself pull him and his father aside, I tell him i'm not going to apologize for Lawson because that's not my place. I asked him what his goals were in racing what does he want out of it. He thinks about it, his dad is squinting at me like its a trick question and he says I want to race IRL cars. Well I said you've just had a valuable lesson form the 4 time World Champion GP rider. That's the fire you're going to have to bring to every event you race in starting tomorrow until the day you're dream is realized.
So all in all I think the answer to your question is you can find away to overcome anything on the track if you want it bad enough...lol
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kj
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| 10-07-2011 10:35 PM |
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Holy cow I wrote a Novella... sorry gang |
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Lessendz
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| 10-08-2011 03:55 AM |
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sorry boss... the edge Youth enjoys is NOT replaceable..
i KNOW personally it is the unfair advantage..
i held it for a long time @ our track considering my age & experience...
but now that i'm older??
i KNOW for certain we no longer have those Awesome reactions & hOtt reflexes of that 17yr old kid playing around drifting Tantalus(Touge) in his M3
as an observer, i feel reaction time is critical especially when learning & experiencing..
when the reaction time slows... so does the learning & progression process...
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kj
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| 10-08-2011 09:44 AM |
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Lessendz why did you ask if you already knew the answer to your own short comings? Like I said it's up to the individual and his commitment to staying on top of his game and how much experience he has to lean on...
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Lessendz
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| 10-08-2011 12:27 PM |
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i didn't really "ask"
it was posed in question form as a pretext for the next statement..
as for my own "short comings"??
since our track closed down, i haven't driven a car in 5years..
and STILL have awhile lotta experience to lean on..
hard to forget ONLY running on Advan R-comp for so many years..
i ordered em full thread so after a few heat cycles @ time attack
i'd finnish'em off on the street..
touge drifting downhill can get Very exciting on R-Comps!!!
as to how long Experience overshadows Old age??
hard to say... but all M.D. will agree its generally a Losing game
while i may be a well rounded driver i'm Not a great one..
and i aint arrogant or stupid enough to hold on to any type of pride..
been there been done that before.. over it and don't need it no more
i've experienced enough to realize these days its no longer so much about myself as a driver..
and more so about the car's layout/setup.. |
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DaewooOfDeath
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| 10-09-2011 05:45 AM |
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Posted By Lessendz on 10-07-2011 02:22 PM
Posted By DaewooOfDeath on 10-06-2011 08:21 PM
Posted By Lessendz on 10-06-2011 02:20 PM
autoX is good fer zero experience / zero money beginners..
unfortunately you won't learn advanced driving techniques to help you become a more complete driver @ these events
nobody Learns to Run fast... PERFECTING their Walk quickly...
You learn some pretty advanced techniques autocrossing, and you learn to do them quickly. The real limitation to autocross is that you don't get high speed corners, the real benefit is that you're going to be steering/braking/working the throttle much faster than you would be in a road race. Speed =/= skill. It takes a lot less skill to run a 13 second quarter mile at 105 mph than it does to slide a rally car around Monaco at 40 mph.
Randy Probst, LeMans winner and SpeedWorldChallenge Champion, came from autocross.
BTW, the guy I referred to is a multi time autocross champ, but he is also part of a team that races Grand Am Porsches, which are pro by any definition.
no, you learn basic techniques and how to mesh them together at autoX.. practice of advanced techniques require situations never encountered in autoX... BTW is thinking/analysing a technique??? cause IMHO that is the ONLY thing which must be done Quickly.. driving input must all be done smoothly.. whether that is fast or slow depends on if the vehicle is moving fast or slow...
but its like i alwayz tell them babyGirls...
"Don't Worry, i race cars... the Faster i go the Smoother i get.. but if ya want me to go Slow Quick i might have to be a Jerk with it" LoL
Trail braking, proper lines, car placement, throttle control, getting all your inputs right on the first try ... I'd say that last one is the biggest. The only thing missing is high speed.
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