fsae_alum
MotoIQ Newb
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| 09-28-2010 01:29 PM |
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Ok.... all this talk online about everybody switching to E85 with mixed results has me scratching my head. Some people report no problems while others report all sort of issues with their injectors clogging with sludge. Does anybody know what exactly is causing this sludge and contanimation of injectors?
Is it caused by sludge in tank from pre-E85 days getting mixed up and flowing through?
Caused by components in the tank breaking down due to E85 compatability and flowing through?
Quality issues with the E85 itslef being full on contaminants and can this be remidied bya special filter?
Fuel system components post tank breaking down and flowing through?
Other causes unlisted or a % combination of the above?
I've seen guys in the Evo world take bone stock cars and switch to E85 from the same stations and one guy has problems and the next guy doesn't? Does anybody have any real testing data and experience to back up the reasons for the issues? |
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smartbomb
MotoIQ Super Genius
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| 09-28-2010 02:52 PM |
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Is the sludge emulsified waterish? Or is it something else? E85 has an affinity for water and is a powerful solvent. |
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fsae_alum
MotoIQ Newb
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| 09-29-2010 12:25 PM |
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I don't know because it's not happening on my car(yet). I'm looking at making the switch to E85 within the next 6 months but dont want to have to deal with what most people have to deal with on E85 in the Evo world......removiing injectors every so often to get them cleaned out. I'm wondering if anybody out there has some real test data to back up the causes of the sludge and clogging issues that some people have in switching over to E85.
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Horsewidower
MotoIQ Engineer
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| 09-29-2010 12:38 PM |
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I've had none of those issues after two years of occasional use. But, my fuel cell is immaculate, my fuel lines are 90% stainless steel. I've had no degradation of the foam in the fuel cell. We did eat a Walbro pump, when we queried walbro their techs told us not to use their pumps with E85.
This is a extremely variable fuel. It differs by season and distributor. It differs state by state. I'm not at all surprised that some folks have problems with it and others don't.
If I was to switch a street car to E85, I think I'd flush and clean the tank, change the filters and flush the fuel lines. Then I'd do it again about a month after switching. Mike makes a good point about it being a powerful solvent. It strips all the gunk out of the fuel system.
It might be worth grabbing a piece of extra stock fuel line, filling a jar with E85 and submersing the fuel line in it. Give it some time and then see what shape the fuel line is in. Maybe the E85 is stripping material off the inside of the line. |
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Lessendz
MotoIQ Newb
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Posts:54
Honolulu Hawaii
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| 09-01-2011 09:28 AM |
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i've read Ethanol supposedly turns standard rubber lines.. soft & gel like?
here in Hawaii
2stroke dirtbike riders complain of fuel filters gettin clogged with E10 (our pump gasoline) after a few years
Boat operators also usually fill up with Neat gasoline(no alcohol) @ the docks to avoid degradation of their fuel lines
Methanol on the other hand supposedly causes standard rubber to dryout, harden & crack
all the stronger alcohol blend concentration fuel users really should change to
flurocarbon lines (dupont trademark name "Viton") if in warmer climates
or PolyTetraFluoroEthylene = PTFE (dupont trademark name "Teflon") if you get them cold winters!!! |
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pistonhead
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| 09-03-2011 09:00 AM |
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I don't have much input on the situation, none of which from my personal experience. On Z31performance.com (does require registration) there is a topic called "black goo from e85" or something of that nature. In that thread the original poster Jon "SATAN" Martin got this on his fuel injectors in 500 miles of E85 use
Jon has a ridiculous fuel system with a swirl pot and all sorts of other race ready goodness, it isn't a 20 year old stock fuel system though for all I know he was running some rubber hose that isn't made for ethanol use. |
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Lessendz
MotoIQ Newb
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Posts:54
Honolulu Hawaii
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| 09-29-2011 02:23 PM |
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ridiculous "race ready goodness" is right..
swirl pots and all kinda tricks pots & routing only give more contact time with extra rubber connections to create more Sludge
Fuel storage/delivery system is best stainless/teflon for constant/continued alcohol use..
altho i've gotten away with almost 15% alcohol for limited amounts of time.. (less than 1 night)
that was with methanol and not ethanol... |
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Todd98SE
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| 02-29-2012 09:53 AM |
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On the Mazdaspeed3 platforms E85 is mostly problem free with lower than 50% mixes. The E85 reduces the lubricity of the regular gasoline enough that occasionally portions of the high pressure CDFP and rail pressure valve can stick and need to be wiped down in order to operate smoothly again. I personally run a 2.25 gal. E85 to 10 gal. 91 octane mix and even while staying conservative to account for variance in the quality of E85 I am able to run about 2 psi more boost, 6-8 degrees more timing, and full point leaner in AFR. I think the direct injection in the MS3 MZR somehow amplifies the ability of E85 to control knock over regular 91 octane gas, it is amazing what a mere 2.25 gallons can do per tank. |
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Lessendz
MotoIQ Newb
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Posts:54
Honolulu Hawaii
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| 03-07-2012 05:10 PM |
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^^
add a bit of synthetic gear oil in with your mix to add lubrication..
i've read on some forums stockish WRX? STi?? can handle about 30% ethanol before tripping CEL light for those who are mixing E10/E85 in their gas tank |
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Horsewidower
MotoIQ Engineer
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| 03-07-2012 07:21 PM |
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Wouldn't adding gear lube into a fuel increase the possibility for knock? It's a curious recommendation, have you tried it? And under what circumstances?
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Todd98SE
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| 03-09-2012 12:56 PM |
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Other MS3 guys that run greater percentages of E85 have tried adding Marvel Mystery Oil for additional lubrication but it didn't seem to make any difference. No additional knock was noted however the CDFP sticking issue wasn't resolved either. I dont know of anyone that has tried regular synthetic motor oil. |
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Horsewidower
MotoIQ Engineer
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| 03-09-2012 06:49 PM |
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I would try a methanol lube before I'd start experimenting with stuff that has a 0 octane rating. |
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Lessendz
MotoIQ Newb
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Honolulu Hawaii
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| 03-10-2012 05:10 AM |
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suuuure adding gear oil will ever so slightly change a fuel's knock threshold...
but we aren't adding in the gear oil for its anti detonation Qualities now are we?
i've used leftover RedLine powersteering fluid when blending gasohol..
but don't really bother nowadays since i blend weaker & fill up immediately with neat gasoline(E0) after to pickle the system before putting it away
BTW who cares about "octane" rating when burning gasohol?? |
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Horsewidower
MotoIQ Engineer
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| 03-10-2012 06:28 PM |
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At some point, when you add in enough of the oils that you are suggesting, you will cause a higer propensity to knock. Since you aren't giving any instructions other than the most vague, it is entirely appropriate to caution people about using substances that can induce detonation. |
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Lessendz
MotoIQ Newb
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Honolulu Hawaii
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| 03-11-2012 05:25 AM |
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i gave "advise"
not "instruction"
and i'd be Much More concerned about Actual alcohol% in my fuel mixture & ignition timing..
opposed to "Octane rating" characteristics of the very TINY amount of gear oil being used as "lubrication" for a blended Gasohol fuel |
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Horsewidower
MotoIQ Engineer
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| 03-11-2012 09:21 AM |
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Now we're getting somewhere. Can you quantify "tiny." In 10 gallons of E85, how much additive are you using? |
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Lessendz
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Honolulu Hawaii
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| 03-11-2012 02:14 PM |
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umm I already stated I don't bother anymore..
been mostly blending for a Stock ECU.
my total % volume alcohol is generally less than whateversOctane E10 you'd buy @ the pump..
I'm content with a blended M7-M8 vs pump E10
no extra Lube needed..
but when My SR20 is tuned on M20..
maybe 1/4 quart of synthetic heavy gear oil to 20gal tank?
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sirnixalot
MotoIQ Grease Monkey
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Posts:164
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| 03-12-2012 11:54 AM |
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not that i have any business in an e85 thread but why not ashless 2 stroke oil? That stuff is made to burn where as the gear oil is not? |
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Lessendz
MotoIQ Newb
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Posts:54
Honolulu Hawaii
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| 03-12-2012 04:44 PM |
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FlashPoint of even heavy gear oil is lower than that of gasohol combustion temps? |
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