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turbo octopus! 304 vs 321 in manifold materials
Last Post 12-08-2011 06:39 PM by spdracerut. 20 Replies.
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SlickshoesUser is Offline
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Slickshoes

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06-17-2011 04:46 PM  

im in the process of building a motor for my drift car and im to the point of building a turbo manifold. i have a custom Vband turbo /Tial 44mm wastegate set-up i sourced from Rado at World Racing and i cant find a deciently prices manifold set up, so im gonna build my own with a little help. talking ot a local guy i know out here who built the manifolds for John Sheppards DSM back int he day, he sugested i use 321 stainless over the more common 304 stainless. i know Mike has used 321 to make DPs for a b15 sentra before so i know hes familiar with it. my question is this. to get my materials together in 321 stainless comes out to about 850 bucks with a month wait time. i can get the same materials in 304 stainless for 250 next day. does the higher temp qualities of 321 justify the 4x cost? can a 304 manifold be made more durable by running extra bolt on bracing to say the block?

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06-17-2011 07:52 PM  
In my limited experience ...it depends.

If you are using the shedule 40 elbows to make it then the 304 will searve you well. If you are using thinwall stuff then the 321 will be worth it for long term durability.
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06-19-2011 04:47 PM  
well all the tubing would be 16 guage. i just can seem to justify the extra cost on a weekend trackday drift car/ASB demo car.
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06-19-2011 08:41 PM  

If it's just a toy track car that you can trailer home, I'd just go with the 304. Get creative on ways to help support the weight of the turbo and downpipe to help take the load off the manifold. For example, the Evo X turbo has a brace going from the compressor housing to the engine block, and a bracket that goes from the turbine housing to the engine block.

Do not coat or wrap the manifold. If you can run E85, the cooler EGTs will help. And for the cheap cost of the 304, you can build two or three manifolds.

smartbombUser is Offline
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Mike Kojima

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06-20-2011 08:57 AM  
321 only. Anything less will crack. 321 will probably also crack.
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spdracerut

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06-20-2011 11:15 AM  

Mike is right in that 321 will probably crack too with enough abuse.  Inconel is the ultimate stuff.  But it all comes down to cost right?  If it were a daily driver car that requried very good reliability, 321 at the minimum.  But since this car sounds more like a toy car and not used for competition (where reliability is also critical), it's up to you if you're willing to accept cracking and the downtime associated with it.  Just realize with 304, it's certain that it will crack at some point.

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06-20-2011 06:51 PM  
if it cracks and you know how to weld and have welding equipment, does it really matter?? If it's for track days and this and that use, use what is more affordable.
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Nikko

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06-20-2011 07:10 PM  
I was under the impression that the bracing would not expand/contract at the same rate/manner as the exhaust manifold adding extra stress to it.

Sorry to semi-thread jack but should i be looking into bracing for a manifold made from sch40 cast steel?
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Mike Kojima

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06-21-2011 07:39 AM  
I think with weld el you should be ok with no bracing. Just be careful that the wastewgate discharge has a slip joint The wastegate discharge often adds stress that cracks the manifold.
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Nikko

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06-21-2011 08:06 AM  
Thanks for the clarification.
SlickshoesUser is Offline
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Slickshoes

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06-21-2011 04:20 PM  
thanks mike and SPD. i managed to find another distributor who was much less than my previous quotes on 321. and the car will see competition next year in TOPDRIFT (unless im bared from entry due to conflict of interest issues lol). now does the exhaust flange need to be 321 as well? or can it be a lesser material? and how long should my merge cllector be if i need to fit a wastegate flange in there (1 7/8in vband)?
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Slickshoes

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06-21-2011 04:24 PM  
and theres a difference between doing it right and doing it cheap lol. im not opposed to doing 321, it just means i wont make All Star Bash as a driver this year.
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Mike Kojima

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06-21-2011 10:31 PM  
304 is fine for the flange. Not sure I understand your other question.
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Slickshoes

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06-22-2011 08:39 AM  
well im worried about boost creap due to improper wastegate placement. should there be X amount of distance between where i place the gate flange and the tip of the merge spike? or can it just be anywhere it fits. im trying to be very careful on packaging as i DO NOT want to have a repeat of what happened to Joons car at willow for MPTCC round 1.
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06-22-2011 10:51 AM  
the larger the collector, the less likely you'll be to give too much priority to one cylinder. You could always run the wastegate v band on the turbine housing.
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Mike Kojima

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06-22-2011 11:34 AM  
I would stick it right after the merge.
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jere

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06-22-2011 02:53 PM  
This is probably a stupid question, but how feasible would it be to run the wastegate right off exhaust housing itself? Not a traditional internal gate setup, cut a hole after the flange and weld some heavy pipe in. Would that be too much for the welds to handle?
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Slickshoes

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06-22-2011 03:04 PM  
thanks mike. ill see what i can find for collectors. its slim pickings for 321 stuff.
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spdracerut

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06-22-2011 07:24 PM  

321 for sure since you'll be using it for competition.  You want the wastegate flow to come off the merge (as close to the flange as possible) at as shallow an angle as possible.

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Turbo Shangbanger

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12-08-2011 08:48 AM  
Depending on the stress levels that you expect to exert upon your set-up you could use either 304 or 321. However, I'd use 321 tubing for any competition use. Err on the thick side as well...We had good results from 3mm 321 tube and depending on the length of the header it doesn't even need supports. However...we had problems with weld cracking until we made a much deeper bevel on the edges of the tubes. 321 has a much higher temp threshold so naturally we had to weld with more heat as well, and a 3 mm piece requires better penetration than a 2mm piece, so when we made a deep weld with more material in a larger 'trench' we saw fewer stress cracks.
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